Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#21  Postby laklak » Aug 11, 2019 4:25 am

"Suicide"

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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#22  Postby Hermit » Aug 11, 2019 4:35 am

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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#23  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 11, 2019 6:38 am

While I think his death is convenient for a lot of rich and powerful people, I think there's also a bloody good motive for someone like him to commit suicide so he doesn't have to face the public shame and the remainder of his years in prison.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#24  Postby Calilasseia » Aug 11, 2019 7:05 am

But an even more powerful motive for having him seen off, would be the number of rich and powerful people who stand to have their nasty skeletons taken out of their closets and paraded for public perusal.

Over here in the UK, some people would have liked to have known, for example, if Epstein's relations with a certain member of the Royal Family involved anything felonious. If it did, that on its own would be a hugely powerful motivator to have him erased from the scene before he could come to trial. The last thing the Establishment wants here, is a scandal of this sort embroiling the Royal Family, and any hard evidence that there was a felonious component to the requisite relationship would create an enormous shitstorm here.

Even worse, if it transpires that any of the high-flying figures in the Tory Party cited in that document Theresa May "lost", had sinister connections to Epstein, knowledge thereof entering the public domain would destroy the Tory Party's electability for a generation. After all, the mere fact that it's been revealed that the "lost" document contained a whopping 144 names, on its own provides a huge amount of food for thought, none of it good.

The above doesn't, of course, constitute evidence that Epstein was pushed rather than jumped, but it certainly leaves the room open for a lot of suspicion in this vein.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#25  Postby Scot Dutchy » Aug 11, 2019 7:44 am

You dont mess with the British royal family which many have discovered to their cost including Diana. Not all American politicians are not given that level of protection. Is there anyone that actually believes this was suicide? Why was he taken off suicide watch? All very convenient.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#26  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 11, 2019 8:16 am

Is there anyone that actually believes this was suicide?


I believe its the default explanation until evidence warrants other causes.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#27  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Aug 11, 2019 8:18 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Is there anyone that actually believes this was suicide?


I believe its the default explanation until evidence warrants other causes.

well, the default explanation was „apparent suicide“
will that get put on the death certificate? :grin:
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#28  Postby Hermit » Aug 11, 2019 10:15 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Is there anyone that actually believes this was suicide?

Speculation is not enough for me to base a belief on, and I don't have any evidence to form a belief either way. A coroner's report might deliver it. If it finds two bullets blew through the back of the head, it probably wasn't a suicide. If it finds the shards of a glass ampoule in the stomach and death from prussic acid, chances are that it was.

If the latter finding is published the usual paranoiacs will of course immediately declare the coroner's report invalid, but then it's straight back to speculation. I would then believe foul play was involved only if some money trail à la Michael Cohen - Stormy Daniels were discovered.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#29  Postby aban57 » Aug 11, 2019 10:41 am

Hermit wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Is there anyone that actually believes this was suicide?

Speculation is not enough for me to base a belief on, and I don't have any evidence to form a belief either way. A coroner's report might deliver it. If it finds two bullets blew through the back of the head, it probably wasn't a suicide. If it finds the shards of a glass ampoule in the stomach and death from prussic acid, chances are that it was.

If the latter finding is published the usual paranoiacs will of course immediately declare the coroner's report invalid, but then it's straight back to speculation. I would then believe foul play was involved only if some money trail à la Michael Cohen - Stormy Daniels were discovered.


Indeed. I'm amazed to see how many people here jump to conclusions, on this "rationalskepticism" forum.

Is it suspicious ? Yes. Is it enough to say it's not suicide ? No.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#30  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Aug 11, 2019 10:57 am

He had some pretty damn good reasons to bump himself off. He was going to prison for life where he'd likely be frequently assaulted and would possibly be murdered.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#31  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 11, 2019 11:22 am

aban57 wrote:
Indeed. I'm amazed to see how many people here jump to conclusions, on this "rationalskepticism" forum.



Ahh but it's the News, Politics, & Current Affairs subforum, so the standards of rational skepticism found elsewhere on these boards don't apply here! ;)
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#32  Postby Scot Dutchy » Aug 11, 2019 2:11 pm

The trouble is we will never know one way or the other.

There will of course be the official version.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#33  Postby The_Piper » Aug 11, 2019 2:14 pm

I agree with Barr that it's appalling that he committed suicide while in federal custody. Just like it's appalling that people get beaten, raped and murdered in various US prisons, on a regular basis. It seems like a lot of people are ok with it, unfortunately.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#34  Postby Scot Dutchy » Aug 11, 2019 6:59 pm

This idea that people get what they deserve in prison is absolutely terrible. Does civilisation stop at the prison gate?
Apparently yes according to a lot of people.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#35  Postby laklak » Aug 11, 2019 11:00 pm

The nation's highest profile prisoner in one of the most secure federal prisons in the country manages to commit "suicide' AFTER he previously 1) tried to kill himself or 2) was almost murdered. And people want to put these incompetent bozos in charge of even more critical shit.

Jesus fucking chirst, how fucking stupid is the Great American Public? How many times do Da Feds have to completely, utterly, totally fuck up something that wasn't even broken in the first place until we learn they can NOT be trusted to do anything other than print money and manage foreign affairs? No, hang on, scratch that, they can't even fucking do THAT competently. A goddamn baboon on meth would do a better job. They fucked up a petrol can, FFS.

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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#36  Postby Alan C » Aug 11, 2019 11:24 pm

He was a vile ruinous sexual predator, not only that but it is alleged that his business model consisted largely of getting various investors into compromising situations so he'd get access to their funds.
Despite this I agree that he shouldn't be dead, not before his victims could see justice served. What happens with them now? Presumably there is all manner of evidence already acquired.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#37  Postby Thommo » Aug 12, 2019 12:07 am

laklak wrote:The nation's highest profile prisoner in one of the most secure federal prisons in the country manages to commit "suicide' AFTER he previously 1) tried to kill himself or 2) was almost murdered. And people want to put these incompetent bozos in charge of even more critical shit.

Jesus fucking chirst, how fucking stupid is the Great American Public? How many times do Da Feds have to completely, utterly, totally fuck up something that wasn't even broken in the first place until we learn they can NOT be trusted to do anything other than print money and manage foreign affairs? No, hang on, scratch that, they can't even fucking do THAT competently. A goddamn baboon on meth would do a better job. They fucked up a petrol can, FFS.

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Do prisoners in custody of private firms have a better survival rate then?
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#38  Postby laklak » Aug 12, 2019 12:10 am

No idea. What's the relevance? The federal government is fucking useless, despite the enormous amount of money they extort from their citizens every year.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#39  Postby Thommo » Aug 12, 2019 12:14 am

The relevance is that you're saying that the government should be involved in less things because it is bad at them. If the government is not involved, then someone else (presumably private enterprise) is going to be doing them instead.

If those other people are no better or are even worse, then what you said doesn't make any sense.

People like Epstein have to be locked up. Certainly something has gone seriously wrong here with him being removed from suicide watch and then committing suicide. However, ideological determinations of what that *something* is are unlikely to help, the actual root cause should be found and that needs empirical investigation.
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Re: Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Donald Trump and Bill Clint

#40  Postby laklak » Aug 12, 2019 12:44 am

I want them to do the job they're bloody well paid to do. a job that they take a very fat chunk of my money to do, every year. I want a minimal level of competence. it's not ideological to point out that they failed, spectacularly, to do something that should be dead goddamn simple, just keep the asshole from hanging himself. Or getting murdered, whichever comes first. Could a private company do better? I've no idea. Competence seems in short supply these days, no matter who is getting paid.
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