Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#341  Postby Fallible » Oct 06, 2017 5:59 am

:scratch:
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#342  Postby OlivierK » Oct 06, 2017 6:04 am

Oldskeptic wrote:Roughly speaking, in 2016, the homicide rate by the 272 million white Americans was ~1.8 per 100,000. By the 54 million Latino Americans ~2.7 per 100,000, and by the 48 million black Americans it was ~12.5 per 100,000. Yet the problem is the general legal availability of guns?

Don't you find it interesting that race in the US comes up in almost every problem we have except for who committed how many homicides.

The fact is that black on black violence committed mostly by young black men, and most of that gang related, against other blacks skews the numbers to a point that the difference becomes significant.

What are the stats on poor-on-poor, or rich-on-rich homicide?
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#343  Postby OlivierK » Oct 06, 2017 6:20 am

Also, what the fuck gives with "272 million white Americans"? That's complete bullshit. According to the latest census, there are around 198 million white, non-Hispanic Americans. Even counting Hispanic Americans as white doesn't get you to 272 million.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#344  Postby zulumoose » Oct 06, 2017 7:08 am

The fact is that black on black violence committed mostly by young black men, and most of that gang related, against other blacks skews the numbers to a point that the difference becomes significant.


That allows the problem to be compartmentalised, but does not in any way diminish it except for the people who attach a different value to "other" lives. Gangs with easy access to guns reinforces the guns for home defence argument, which makes home invasions and robberies more violent and so on and so on.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#345  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Oct 06, 2017 7:27 am

willhud9 wrote:
Which is disingenuous. There are plenty of gun owners who are not in the pockets of the gun lobby nor supportive of it. But should their enjoyment in buying firearms be spoiled because of it? I don't think so. I think that just calls for stricter regulation on the gun lobby.


Where do you think the money comes from to fund the NRA?

The gun industry makes a windfall with every mass shooting. Not sure how any of us should be comfortable about that feedback loop.

Image


Then there is this genuinely scary shit (recently pulled after the LV shooting)...



A portion of your gun purchase goes to this whether you like it or not.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#346  Postby aban57 » Oct 06, 2017 7:46 am

Oldskeptic wrote:Roughly speaking, in 2016, the homicide rate by the 272 million white Americans was ~1.8 per 100,000. By the 54 million Latino Americans ~2.7 per 100,000, and by the 48 million black Americans it was ~12.5 per 100,000. Yet the problem is the general legal availability of guns?

Don't you find it interesting that race in the US comes up in almost every problem we have except for who committed how many homicides.

The fact is that black on black violence committed mostly by young black men, and most of that gang related, against other blacks skews the numbers to a point that the difference becomes significant.


Tell that to the Las Vegas victims. Any policy addressing the so-called problem you're talking about wouldn't have prevented this shooting. The problem has to be taken generally, not specifically. Like with pretty much every problem.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#347  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 06, 2017 8:46 am

Then there is this genuinely scary shit (recently pulled after the LV shooting)...



A portion of your gun purchase goes to this whether you like it or not.

Please tell me that's satire? :yuk:
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#348  Postby Sendraks » Oct 06, 2017 9:39 am

Oldskeptic wrote:
The fact is that black on black violence committed mostly by young black men, and most of that gang related, against other blacks skews the numbers to a point that the difference becomes significant.


Not so significant that anyone in authority seems prepared to address the underlying problems which lead to violence, largely because that would mean acknowledging those problems exist and the causes of them.

However, when young black men try to raise awareness of the issue through peaceful protest, they get vilified by the President.

Oldskeptic wrote:Don't you find it interesting that race in the US comes up in almost every problem we have except for who committed how many homicides.


Ah, it tends to come up when people are trying to deflect away from the problem people are trying to focus on or, you know, when there's a dishonest attempt to try and undermine the BLM movement.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#349  Postby felltoearth » Oct 06, 2017 9:48 am

Hey, it's just black on black crime and thuggery man. It's not *our* problem.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#350  Postby Sendraks » Oct 06, 2017 10:05 am

felltoearth wrote:Hey, it's just black on black crime and thuggery man. It's not *our* problem.



....OMG ARE THEY KNEELING TO THE ANTHEM!?!?!
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#351  Postby Rumraket » Oct 06, 2017 11:46 am

Oldskeptic wrote:Roughly speaking, in 2016, the homicide rate by the 272 million white Americans was ~1.8 per 100,000. By the 54 million Latino Americans ~2.7 per 100,000, and by the 48 million black Americans it was ~12.5 per 100,000. Yet the problem is the general legal availability of guns?

Don't you find it interesting that race in the US comes up in almost every problem we have except for who committed how many homicides.

The fact is that black on black violence committed mostly by young black men, and most of that gang related, against other blacks skews the numbers to a point that the difference becomes significant.

What proportion of their guns are illegally obtained, and the illegally obtained ones, where do they come from?
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#352  Postby Thommo » Oct 06, 2017 12:07 pm

Don't know if it's accurate, but an alternative version of the whites only murder rate appears here with some context:

http://americablog.com/2013/01/ann-coul ... lgium.html
Had Ann Coulter looked at other (western) European countries, besides Belgium – the countries most like the US – she would have found a much lower overall murder rate per 100,000. For example (and these are rough back-of-the-envelope averages over the same time period):

US ‘whites only’ murder rate: 2.6
Denamark 1.0
Ireland 1.2
Norway 0.8
Sweden 0.9
Greece 1.4
Italy 1.4
Spain 1.2
Austria 0.8
France 1.7
Germany 1.2
Switzerland 1.0

Now you know why Ann Coulter picked Belgium. Even the US’ ‘whites only’ murder rate is two to three times the murder rate in western Europe.


If that's accurate, then it seems that a murder rate 2-3 times higher than for "whites only" in comparable countries is still a serious problem (as I suppose is clear to the families and friends still grieving this avoidable Las Vegas tragedy). I'm not sure the fact it's a much bigger problem for some disadvantaged groups makes much difference. It's a problem for everyone else as well.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#353  Postby felltoearth » Oct 06, 2017 12:16 pm

OlivierK wrote:Also, what the fuck gives with "272 million white Americans"? That's complete bullshit. According to the latest census, there are around 198 million white, non-Hispanic Americans. Even counting Hispanic Americans as white doesn't get you to 272 million.


What? OS playing fast and loose with statistics? Say it isn't so!
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#354  Postby willhud9 » Oct 06, 2017 12:24 pm

Thommo wrote:Don't know if it's accurate, but an alternative version of the whites only murder rate appears here with some context:

http://americablog.com/2013/01/ann-coul ... lgium.html
Had Ann Coulter looked at other (western) European countries, besides Belgium – the countries most like the US – she would have found a much lower overall murder rate per 100,000. For example (and these are rough back-of-the-envelope averages over the same time period):

US ‘whites only’ murder rate: 2.6
Denamark 1.0
Ireland 1.2
Norway 0.8
Sweden 0.9
Greece 1.4
Italy 1.4
Spain 1.2
Austria 0.8
France 1.7
Germany 1.2
Switzerland 1.0

Now you know why Ann Coulter picked Belgium. Even the US’ ‘whites only’ murder rate is two to three times the murder rate in western Europe.


If that's accurate, then it seems that a murder rate 2-3 times higher than for "whites only" in comparable countries is still a serious problem (as I suppose is clear to the families and friends still grieving this avoidable Las Vegas tragedy). I'm not sure the fact it's a much bigger problem for some disadvantaged groups makes much difference. It's a problem for everyone else as well.


It is a problem, but at the same time what is the comparison to assaults? Last time I checked roughly equal. And this is something I really hate about playing with statistics. A person can get beaten to an inch of death, become permanently paralyzed, and count as just an assault statistic. A person can get stabbed and require intensive surgery and lose access to a motor function but still considered just an assault statistic.

The people in Las Vegas who survived many of them have a high chance of having a physical disability after all is done, not to mention the emotional trauma. These people are deemed assault statistic because they were not killed.

So we point to these statistics and say, “well it’s better than being killed” and yes death is final, but I honestly could not cope if I was shot, stabbed, beaten, etc to an inch of life and suffered some hindering long term disability? What kind of life is that? To many victims of serious assault their life loses quality in their eyes. And the “it could be worse they could be dead” comfort is grossly insensitive to the fact that anyone who has gone through painful assaults knows that sometimes you wish you were dead. Suicide numbers increase for assault survivors.

And so again, I raise my point of contention. The US and many other western countries have a comparable assault rate. The US is different because many people can successfully carry out their assault to lethal means. I agree that is a problem. But the bigger problem is the assaults themselves. They need to be addressed, a cure needs to be found for them. You lower assault rates and you lower gun homicide. It’s a simple correlation. :dunno:
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#355  Postby Rumraket » Oct 06, 2017 12:34 pm

willhud9 wrote:And so again, I raise my point of contention. The US and many other western countries have a comparable assault rate. The US is different because many people can successfully carry out their assault to lethal means. I agree that is a problem. But the bigger problem is the assaults themselves. They need to be addressed, a cure needs to be found for them. You lower assault rates and you lower gun homicide. It’s a simple correlation. :dunno:

Sure, assaults need to be addressed... too.

But that is not an excuse for doing nothing about guns. You can do something about both, and one doesn't have to be at the expense of the other.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#356  Postby willhud9 » Oct 06, 2017 12:39 pm

Rumraket wrote:
willhud9 wrote:And so again, I raise my point of contention. The US and many other western countries have a comparable assault rate. The US is different because many people can successfully carry out their assault to lethal means. I agree that is a problem. But the bigger problem is the assaults themselves. They need to be addressed, a cure needs to be found for them. You lower assault rates and you lower gun homicide. It’s a simple correlation. :dunno:

Sure, assaults need to be addressed... too.

But that is not an excuse for doing nothing about guns. You can do something about both, and one doesn't have to be at the expense of the other.


I’m not saying do nothing about guns, and as I’ve said I’m all for gun control. :dunno:

My thing is you can have guns, even semi-autos in a society where the assault rates are low.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#357  Postby The_Piper » Oct 06, 2017 12:52 pm

felltoearth wrote:Hey, it's just black on black crime and thuggery man. It's not *our* problem.

:thumbup:
(I tried to +1 but got a message "invalid thank")

Black on black...gtfo with that phrase. I hate it. How do inner-city criminals get their illegal guns? Where do those guns come from?
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#358  Postby aban57 » Oct 06, 2017 12:53 pm

willhud9 wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
willhud9 wrote:And so again, I raise my point of contention. The US and many other western countries have a comparable assault rate. The US is different because many people can successfully carry out their assault to lethal means. I agree that is a problem. But the bigger problem is the assaults themselves. They need to be addressed, a cure needs to be found for them. You lower assault rates and you lower gun homicide. It’s a simple correlation. :dunno:

Sure, assaults need to be addressed... too.

But that is not an excuse for doing nothing about guns. You can do something about both, and one doesn't have to be at the expense of the other.


I’m not saying do nothing about guns, and as I’ve said I’m all for gun control. :dunno:

My thing is you can have guns, even semi-autos in a society where the assault rates are low.


Do you have an example of any society where assault rate is low ? What makes you think it's even possible to reach that level in our current societies, unless putting some anti-testosterone in the water ?
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#359  Postby Sendraks » Oct 06, 2017 1:01 pm

Isn't talking about homicides here getting the discussion way off target? Its basically just fishing around for one set of statistics to argue against the need for more rigorous gun control.

The issue is one of mass shootings. Which whilst not a uniquely US problem, is still a predominantly US problem.

Sure, changing gun laws in the UK post Dunblane might not have had a huge impact on the homicide rate (and the discovery of Shipman's antics in the noughties caused quite a spike in homicide figures) but, its only been twenty years since the last mass shooting in the UK so perhaps it is too early to tell if the law has worked or not.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#360  Postby zulumoose » Oct 06, 2017 1:04 pm

How do inner-city criminals get their illegal guns? Where do those guns come from?


Snatched from coffee tables, drawers, bedside tables, glove compartments, pickup gun racks, mugging victims, etc. Must be easy when they are commonplace and in many states registration and secure storage is not required.
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