Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#361  Postby Willie71 » Oct 06, 2017 1:25 pm

aban57 wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
willhud9 wrote:And so again, I raise my point of contention. The US and many other western countries have a comparable assault rate. The US is different because many people can successfully carry out their assault to lethal means. I agree that is a problem. But the bigger problem is the assaults themselves. They need to be addressed, a cure needs to be found for them. You lower assault rates and you lower gun homicide. It’s a simple correlation. :dunno:

Sure, assaults need to be addressed... too.

But that is not an excuse for doing nothing about guns. You can do something about both, and one doesn't have to be at the expense of the other.


I’m not saying do nothing about guns, and as I’ve said I’m all for gun control. :dunno:

My thing is you can have guns, even semi-autos in a society where the assault rates are low.


Do you have an example of any society where assault rate is low ? What makes you think it's even possible to reach that level in our current societies, unless putting some anti-testosterone in the water ?


...or get the lead out of the water. I suspect lead paint in low income housing, and lead in water in black communities significantly contributes to the violence in low income communities.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#362  Postby Willie71 » Oct 06, 2017 1:30 pm

willhud9 wrote:
Thommo wrote:Don't know if it's accurate, but an alternative version of the whites only murder rate appears here with some context:

http://americablog.com/2013/01/ann-coul ... lgium.html
Had Ann Coulter looked at other (western) European countries, besides Belgium – the countries most like the US – she would have found a much lower overall murder rate per 100,000. For example (and these are rough back-of-the-envelope averages over the same time period):

US ‘whites only’ murder rate: 2.6
Denamark 1.0
Ireland 1.2
Norway 0.8
Sweden 0.9
Greece 1.4
Italy 1.4
Spain 1.2
Austria 0.8
France 1.7
Germany 1.2
Switzerland 1.0

Now you know why Ann Coulter picked Belgium. Even the US’ ‘whites only’ murder rate is two to three times the murder rate in western Europe.


If that's accurate, then it seems that a murder rate 2-3 times higher than for "whites only" in comparable countries is still a serious problem (as I suppose is clear to the families and friends still grieving this avoidable Las Vegas tragedy). I'm not sure the fact it's a much bigger problem for some disadvantaged groups makes much difference. It's a problem for everyone else as well.


It is a problem, but at the same time what is the comparison to assaults? Last time I checked roughly equal. And this is something I really hate about playing with statistics. A person can get beaten to an inch of death, become permanently paralyzed, and count as just an assault statistic. A person can get stabbed and require intensive surgery and lose access to a motor function but still considered just an assault statistic.

The people in Las Vegas who survived many of them have a high chance of having a physical disability after all is done, not to mention the emotional trauma. These people are deemed assault statistic because they were not killed.

So we point to these statistics and say, “well it’s better than being killed” and yes death is final, but I honestly could not cope if I was shot, stabbed, beaten, etc to an inch of life and suffered some hindering long term disability? What kind of life is that? To many victims of serious assault their life loses quality in their eyes. And the “it could be worse they could be dead” comfort is grossly insensitive to the fact that anyone who has gone through painful assaults knows that sometimes you wish you were dead. Suicide numbers increase for assault survivors.

And so again, I raise my point of contention. The US and many other western countries have a comparable assault rate. The US is different because many people can successfully carry out their assault to lethal means. I agree that is a problem. But the bigger problem is the assaults themselves. They need to be addressed, a cure needs to be found for them. You lower assault rates and you lower gun homicide. It’s a simple correlation. :dunno:


You just rang the bell on your argument. With similar assault rates, lack of guns prevents deaths. You are more likely to survive a stabbing, or other physical assault than being shot. That is what everyone has been saying for decades. The “you can kill other ways too.” argument ignores lethality and ease.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#363  Postby Sendraks » Oct 06, 2017 1:33 pm

zulumoose wrote:
How do inner-city criminals get their illegal guns? Where do those guns come from?


Snatched from coffee tables, drawers, bedside tables, glove compartments, pickup gun racks, mugging victims, etc. Must be easy when they are commonplace and in many states registration and secure storage is not required.


:this:

You could easily amend the question to include any number of common place and readily thieve-able items.

How do inner-city criminals get their smartphones? Where do those smartphones come from?

How do inner-city criminals get their cars? Where do those cars come from?
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#364  Postby laklak » Oct 06, 2017 2:44 pm

We focus on mass shootings because they're newsworthy, but ignore the fact that the monthly murder toll in Chicago is higher than the Las Vegas massacre. But it's not one, big killing that can be used to churn up outrage, and the vast majority of victims are black, so nobody bothers talking about it. It's not ""newsworthy". OS may have been off on a figure or two, but his point stands. My "white privilege" apparently reduces my chances of dying by gun violence by a huge factor over the average black male (and to a lesser percentage than an Hispanic male).

I've said this before, the only place I've ever been a victim of personal, violent crime is the UK. This despite living in places like the USA, Johannesburg, and Lagos.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#365  Postby Sendraks » Oct 06, 2017 3:18 pm

laklak wrote:We focus on mass shootings because they're newsworthy,


They're newsworthy but, they are also an event that is distinct from routine homicide. The changes in UK gun law were made to mitigate against the chances of another mass shooting occurring, rather than simply to reduce homicides overall.

In terms of the US, if changes in gun control law reduce the frequency of mass shootings from what they are now and indeed if they can make it so its at least twenty years until the next one, then those changes in the law would have done their job, even if the homicide rate itself didn't change very much.

laklak wrote:I've said this before, the only place I've ever been a victim of personal, violent crime is the UK. This despite living in places like the USA, Johannesburg, and Lagos.


Which only goes to show.............actually I'm not sure what it goes to show.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#366  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 06, 2017 3:25 pm

Willie71 wrote:
aban57 wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
Sure, assaults need to be addressed... too.

But that is not an excuse for doing nothing about guns. You can do something about both, and one doesn't have to be at the expense of the other.


I’m not saying do nothing about guns, and as I’ve said I’m all for gun control. :dunno:

My thing is you can have guns, even semi-autos in a society where the assault rates are low.


Do you have an example of any society where assault rate is low ? What makes you think it's even possible to reach that level in our current societies, unless putting some anti-testosterone in the water ?


...or get the lead out of the water. I suspect lead paint in low income housing, and lead in water in black communities significantly contributes to the violence in low income communities.


Your suspicion is not only correct, but backed by peer reviewed research.

Among the papers covering this topic, are this one and this one.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#367  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 06, 2017 3:26 pm

Sendraks wrote:
laklak wrote:We focus on mass shootings because they're newsworthy,


They're newsworthy but, they are also an event that is distinct from routine homicide. The changes in UK gun law were made to mitigate against the chances of another mass shooting occurring, rather than simply to reduce homicides overall.

In terms of the US, if changes in gun control law reduce the frequency of mass shootings from what they are now and indeed if they can make it so its at least twenty years until the next one, then those changes in the law would have done their job, even if the homicide rate itself didn't change very much.

laklak wrote:I've said this before, the only place I've ever been a victim of personal, violent crime is the UK. This despite living in places like the USA, Johannesburg, and Lagos.


Which only goes to show.............actually I'm not sure what it goes to show.

That people can experience violence in the UK, but not the USA, Johannesburg and Lagos.
With a sample size of 1 that's sure to shows, eh, something....
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#368  Postby The_Piper » Oct 06, 2017 3:47 pm

zulumoose wrote:
How do inner-city criminals get their illegal guns? Where do those guns come from?


Snatched from coffee tables, drawers, bedside tables, glove compartments, pickup gun racks, mugging victims, etc. Must be easy when they are commonplace and in many states registration and secure storage is not required.

I figured many came from gun shows and private sales in states like Maine where someone can buy a bunch of guns without so much as showing an ID, and then immediately turn them over in cities like Boston for a gigantic profit.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#369  Postby Sendraks » Oct 06, 2017 4:13 pm

The_Piper wrote:
I figured many came from gun shows and private sales in states like Maine where someone can buy a bunch of guns without so much as showing an ID, and then immediately turn them over in cities like Boston for a gigantic profit.


It's definitely a factor and it probably doesn't help that a lack of research into gun crime, means the picture is somewhat fuzzy indeed. But, a lot of firearms used in crime are apparently stolen.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/11/opinion/focus-on-illegal-guns.html
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#370  Postby The_Metatron » Oct 06, 2017 7:29 pm

...from those responsible gun owners.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#371  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Oct 06, 2017 7:42 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Then there is this genuinely scary shit (recently pulled after the LV shooting)...



A portion of your gun purchase goes to this whether you like it or not.

Please tell me that's satire? :yuk:


Unfortunately not.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#372  Postby Macdoc » Oct 06, 2017 9:21 pm

I was just curious if all of WilH guests ...especially those with kids .... were made aware of a loaded revolver with an "easy safety" in the coffe table. :roll:
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#373  Postby willhud9 » Oct 06, 2017 9:34 pm

Macdoc wrote:I was just curious if all of WilH guests ...especially those with kids .... were made aware of a loaded revolver with an "easy safety" in the coffe table. :roll:


No. The coffee table was in my father’s room which no one went into aside from my parents. Why should we tell anyone where it was? If the police came to investigate something we’d tell the police if you look in that coffee table there is a gun but like, what is the point of your question?
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#374  Postby Macdoc » Oct 06, 2017 9:46 pm

:roll:
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#375  Postby Arnold Layne » Oct 06, 2017 10:02 pm

laklak wrote:We focus on mass shootings because they're newsworthy, but ignore the fact that the monthly murder toll in Chicago is higher than the Las Vegas massacre. But it's not one, big killing that can be used to churn up outrage, and the vast majority of victims are black, so nobody bothers talking about it. It's not ""newsworthy". OS may have been off on a figure or two, but his point stands. My "white privilege" apparently reduces my chances of dying by gun violence by a huge factor over the average black male (and to a lesser percentage than an Hispanic male).

I've said this before, the only place I've ever been a victim of personal, violent crime is the UK. This despite living in places like the USA, Johannesburg, and Lagos.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#376  Postby The_Metatron » Oct 06, 2017 11:25 pm

willhud9 wrote:
Macdoc wrote:I was just curious if all of WilH guests ...especially those with kids .... were made aware of a loaded revolver with an "easy safety" in the coffe table. :roll:


No. The coffee table was in my father’s room which no one went into aside from my parents. Why should we tell anyone where it was? If the police came to investigate something we’d tell the police if you look in that coffee table there is a gun but like, what is the point of your question?

Macdoc wrote::roll:


I don’t know what to say to that, either. I can’t figure out if that inability to predict possible outcomes is real.


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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#377  Postby I'm With Stupid » Oct 07, 2017 12:47 am

Sendraks wrote:
zulumoose wrote:
How do inner-city criminals get their illegal guns? Where do those guns come from?


Snatched from coffee tables, drawers, bedside tables, glove compartments, pickup gun racks, mugging victims, etc. Must be easy when they are commonplace and in many states registration and secure storage is not required.


:this:

You could easily amend the question to include any number of common place and readily thieve-able items.

How do inner-city criminals get their smartphones? Where do those smartphones come from?

How do inner-city criminals get their cars? Where do those cars come from?

There's also an interesting chicken and egg situation here. Obviously gangs will always try and get their hands on weapons, but how many petty criminals carry guns precisely because they know that large numbers of a general population have them? People justify gun ownership by claiming that the 'bad guys' have guns, but the bad guys presumably justify gun ownership in the same terms. In a country where guns are illegal, burglars are never going to carry a gun, because the sentence for carry a gun is massively more than for burglary. In the UK, if you get caught for burglary, you're unlikely to go to prison for a first offence. If that same person is carrying a gun when they're caught, the sentence is a minimum of five years in prison. It makes the police's job much easier too, because seeing a gun identifies someone as a criminal straight away.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#378  Postby aliihsanasl » Oct 07, 2017 5:08 am

Is it a gun control problem or a cultural problem is the one million dollar question I think.

We cant know if a magic hand would take all the guns of US citizens whether they will find a chemical explosive or another method for mass killing but one thing is sure both in Columbine mass killing and in this last one murderers had large amount of explosives but didn't have chance/ability to use them. An automatic rifle is a dumb's device for carnage, just hold it on people and keep trigger pressed let it vomit bullets.

Explosives need some more expertise especially if the subject want to see the result of his carnage even if he plans to die in the end.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#379  Postby Fallible » Oct 07, 2017 7:16 am

laklak wrote:We focus on mass shootings because they're newsworthy, but ignore the fact that the monthly murder toll in Chicago is higher than the Las Vegas massacre. But it's not one, big killing that can be used to churn up outrage, and the vast majority of victims are black, so nobody bothers talking about it. It's not ""newsworthy". OS may have been off on a figure or two, but his point stands. My "white privilege" apparently reduces my chances of dying by gun violence by a huge factor over the average black male (and to a lesser percentage than an Hispanic male).

I've said this before, the only place I've ever been a victim of personal, violent crime is the UK. This despite living in places like the USA, Johannesburg, and Lagos.


Yeah, you have said it before, but I'm never quite sure what your point is. We have violent crime here, but in the vast majority of cases the perpetrators don't have a tool that can kill multiple people in a matter of seconds from a distance. Arnold made this point rather succinctly. What is it you're trying to say with your unverifiable anecdote? I have one to trade - I have never been a victim of personal, violent crime, this despite living in the UK for more than 35 years.
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay

#380  Postby Thommo » Oct 07, 2017 7:22 am

I've never died of breast cancer, so it doesn't worry me. Maybe we should cut funding for treatment.
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