Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

Gender segregation issues

For discussion of politics, and what's going on in the world today.

Moderators: Blip, The_Metatron

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#41  Postby Shrunk » Mar 15, 2013 6:38 pm

mrjonno wrote:I can guarantee most large universities will have mosques and possibly synagogues that have gender separation.

Saw one at the University of Sussex when I did a course down there


That seems a reasonable concession to me. It is a site specifically set of for religious observance. (Though simply refusing to endorse any religion and not setting aside public worship spaces of any sort would also be reasonable IMHO.)

Enforcing segregation at a secular event open to all is a different matter.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#42  Postby hackenslash » Mar 15, 2013 6:39 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote:Can someone clarify where this event took place.

I was thinking somewhere like Saudi Arabia or UAE or some other Arab nation, but I read University College of London in the OP. Segregated seating? WTF?


It was indeed at UCL. Incidentally, there's a bit of fun going on on Krauss's Faceache page at the mo...

http://www.facebook.com/lawrence.krauss ... tif_t=like
User avatar
hackenslash
 
Name: The Other Sweary One
Posts: 21438
Age: 50
Male

Country: Republic of Mancunia
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#43  Postby Oeditor » Mar 15, 2013 6:46 pm

Shrunk wrote:That's one of the parts that is unclear to me: Whether men or women who were not in a "couple" could sit in the "mixed" area.
Only by Islamist-like deception, I suspect - there's an account of one woman's getting a bloke to pretend they were a couple so she could sit nearer the front. Rather like getting an adult to "take you in" to the pictures when you were a child. Which of course they consider women equivalent to. This, from "concerned students" also suggests that only those designated as couples were allowed in the separate "couples" area, the main area being reserved for men only.
Seating at the event was segregated between men and women, with a small ‘mixed’ space allocated for couples.

Separate entrances were in place for women and men, although ‘couples’ were allowed to enter via the men’s door. Male attendees were refused entry via the women’s door.[my emphases]
Definitely sounds like three spaces, not two.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/03/press-release-on-gender-segregation-at-ucl-event/
The very reason food is sealed is to keep information out. - Gary Ablett Snr.
Oeditor
 
Posts: 4581
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#44  Postby Oeditor » Mar 15, 2013 6:54 pm

While we're at it, here's what "Archbishop Cranmer" - hardly one of the mob of atheists IERA depicts objectors as - has to say about EIRA and its Tzortzis.
It pitched atheist Professor Lawrence Krauss against Hamza Andreas Tzortzis (described variously as ‘a lecturer on Islam’ or an ‘Islamist extremist’). He agitates for a global caliphate and isn’t particularly disposed to Jews, gays, adulterous women or democracy. He has publicly denounced liberty:

“We as Muslims reject the idea of freedom of speech, and even the idea of freedom. We see under the Khilafa (caliphate), when people used to engage in a positive way, this idea of freedom was redundant, it was unnecessary, because the society understood under the education system of the Khilafa state, and under the political framework of Islam, that people must engage with each other in a positive and productive way to produce results, as the Qur’an says, to get to know one another.”

Many other iERA spokesmen take the view that the US conspired in the 1993 al-Qaeda attack on the World Trade Center; that ‘every Muslim should be a terrorist’; that homosexuals should be hanged and women who commit adultery should be stoned.
Doesn't inspire me to think of them as merely providing sanctuary for shy and delicate wallflowers.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/ucl-adopts-sharia-law-for-public-debate.html
The very reason food is sealed is to keep information out. - Gary Ablett Snr.
Oeditor
 
Posts: 4581
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#45  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Mar 15, 2013 7:08 pm

mrjonno wrote:I can guarantee most large universities will have mosques and possibly synagogues that have gender separation.

Saw one at the University of Sussex when I did a course down there


I can understand if a university has a mosque or synagogue that there might be segregation INSIDE the mosque or synagogue, but at a public lecture hall? They shouldn't have the right to kick people because they are siting in "Female seating". They may as well have separate seating for Blacks or Jews.
"Things don't need to be true, as long as they are believed" - Alexander Nix, CEO Cambridge Analytica
User avatar
CdesignProponentsist
 
Posts: 12535
Age: 52
Male

Country: California
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#46  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 15, 2013 7:13 pm

I imagine they wouldn't mind that. Certainly for Jews.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
User avatar
Onyx8
Moderator
 
Posts: 17520
Age: 63
Male

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#47  Postby Oeditor » Mar 15, 2013 7:20 pm

mrjonno wrote:I can guarantee most large universities will have mosques and possibly synagogues that have gender separation.

Saw one at the University of Sussex when I did a course down there
Bloody hell, how low have universities fallen since my day? OK, when I was a student they had an Anglican chaplaincy offering tea, sympathy and a space for potters, but a fucking CHURCH? No way. (It certainly wasn't segregated either - I first met my wife there, and neither of us was praying!)
The very reason food is sealed is to keep information out. - Gary Ablett Snr.
Oeditor
 
Posts: 4581
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#48  Postby Shrunk » Mar 15, 2013 7:23 pm

iERA has put up a time lapse video of people coming into the lecture theatre to demonstrate...um....something, I guess.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt77Uua2F6U[/youtube]

:eh:
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#49  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 15, 2013 7:26 pm

Women in the first row?
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
User avatar
Onyx8
Moderator
 
Posts: 17520
Age: 63
Male

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#50  Postby Shrunk » Mar 15, 2013 7:28 pm

BTW, they've also put up this clip of the debate itself. They say it is the first of a series of "key moments" that they will be posting ahead of the full debate. I guess by "key moments" they mean "gotcha moments, from the point of view of the Islamists."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-m2efCzeMA[/youtube]
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#51  Postby Shrunk » Mar 15, 2013 7:32 pm

Onyx8 wrote:Women in the first row?


Maybe as part of a "couple"? Or they sat there before the hired muscle moved them? As The Guardian points out, the video is useless because it doesn't include sound, and it is not clear whether it shows the entire time people were coming in, or just part. Certainly there is nothing there to contradict the charges against iERA. No one is saying they succeeded in segregating the audience. Only that they tried to.

Again, the point is that having a "women only" section is segregation. It doesn't matter that women can also sit elsewhere.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#52  Postby mrjonno » Mar 15, 2013 7:38 pm

Oeditor wrote:
mrjonno wrote:I can guarantee most large universities will have mosques and possibly synagogues that have gender separation.

Saw one at the University of Sussex when I did a course down there
Bloody hell, how low have universities fallen since my day? OK, when I was a student they had an Anglican chaplaincy offering tea, sympathy and a space for potters, but a fucking CHURCH? No way. (It certainly wasn't segregated either - I first met my wife there, and neither of us was praying!)


Looked more like a large room to me, it had a separate brothers and sisters entrances
User avatar
mrjonno
 
Posts: 21006
Age: 47
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#53  Postby Oeditor » Mar 15, 2013 7:42 pm

Why did they feel the need to film the audience, full on? Did they ask their permission? Especially of the women there?
It looks as if the whole business was a put-up job.
The very reason food is sealed is to keep information out. - Gary Ablett Snr.
Oeditor
 
Posts: 4581
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#54  Postby hackenslash » Mar 15, 2013 8:23 pm

Shrunk wrote:I guess by "key moments" they mean "gotcha moments, from the point of view of the Islamists."


Not much of a gotcha. I thought his response was pretty much spot on. What is the moral objection to incest? Sure, congenital defects in offspring would mean that there was a moral issue in bringing the product of such a union to life, but is there actually a moral issue with the act itself? I'd probably go further, and say that it isn't actually a moral question once you remove the progeny objection.
User avatar
hackenslash
 
Name: The Other Sweary One
Posts: 21438
Age: 50
Male

Country: Republic of Mancunia
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#55  Postby Shrunk » Mar 15, 2013 10:18 pm

hackenslash wrote:
Shrunk wrote:I guess by "key moments" they mean "gotcha moments, from the point of view of the Islamists."


Not much of a gotcha. I thought his response was pretty much spot on. What is the moral objection to incest? Sure, congenital defects in offspring would mean that there was a moral issue in bringing the product of such a union to life, but is there actually a moral issue with the act itself? I'd probably go further, and say that it isn't actually a moral question once you remove the progeny objection.


Yes, I agree. But to their intended audience, you know the sound bite message will be "atheism = incest."
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#56  Postby Oeditor » Mar 15, 2013 10:59 pm

Shrunk wrote: But to their intended audience, you know the sound bite message will be "atheism = incest."
How did they come to ask him about incest? A lot of he audience was clearly delighted. Was this another set-up? Could the segregation business have been set up to get lots of publicity ready for the video stuff?
The very reason food is sealed is to keep information out. - Gary Ablett Snr.
Oeditor
 
Posts: 4581
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#57  Postby Bribase » Mar 16, 2013 12:54 am

Oeditor wrote:
Shrunk wrote: But to their intended audience, you know the sound bite message will be "atheism = incest."
How did they come to ask him about incest? A lot of he audience was clearly delighted. Was this another set-up? Could the segregation business have been set up to get lots of publicity ready for the video stuff?


You're ascribing them with far more intelligence than you ought to. This is the old "I can prove objectively the immorality of action A because magic man makes it so... objectively... somehow. Now it's my turn to scoff at you when you display more intellectual honesty than I do."

If reports are correct (this was cited in a youtube rebuttal of the clip), Tzortsis replied with "A man who tries to justify incest has no moral highground over me." It's just a tactic to discredit Krauss for his own intellectual honesty about the subject. The believers shout with glee because they think they scored some kind of point while those who understand the nature of debate kow that a concession is not the same as an endorsement and the religious claim of absolute morality is fallacious.
User avatar
Bribase
 
Posts: 2671
Age: 38
Male

Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#58  Postby james1v » Mar 16, 2013 1:08 am

Shrunk wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Shrunk wrote:I guess by "key moments" they mean "gotcha moments, from the point of view of the Islamists."


Not much of a gotcha. I thought his response was pretty much spot on. What is the moral objection to incest? Sure, congenital defects in offspring would mean that there was a moral issue in bringing the product of such a union to life, but is there actually a moral issue with the act itself? I'd probably go further, and say that it isn't actually a moral question once you remove the progeny objection.


Yes, I agree. But to their intended audience, you know the sound bite message will be "atheism = incest."



:think: Isn't it common among Islamists, to marry relatives? I'm guessing, it was a "trick question" from the Islamist.

:think:
"When humans yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon". Thomas Paine.
User avatar
james1v
 
Name: James.
Posts: 8932
Age: 61
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#59  Postby Oeditor » Mar 16, 2013 11:11 am

Bribase wrote:

If reports are correct (this was cited in a youtube rebuttal of the clip),
Where the narraator, who says he was there, describes it as a despicable diversionary tactic. Regardless of that, it's clear that Tzortzis just threw down the question out of the blue, and no doubt had a good idea what the answer would be.
Let's just call it laying the ground for quote-mining and see what else they pick out.
The very reason food is sealed is to keep information out. - Gary Ablett Snr.
Oeditor
 
Posts: 4581
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#60  Postby Aern Rakesh » Mar 16, 2013 11:15 am

mrjonno wrote:
Shrunk wrote:TBH, reading the various sources on this incident, I'm still not completely clear on what happened. It does appear there was a "women only" section for those who wanted to segregate themselves. But it appears that women were not required to sit there, and could sit in the "mixed" section if they wished, although some reports suggest the "mixed" section was only for "couples."

I'm still not comfortable with making accomodations in a secular university for women who want to (or have been pressured to) segregate themselves. But, even so, that's quite different than having segregation imposed on everyone at the event. At the very least, this should be clarified so we can form a fully informed opinion.



Being a git whenever I see a woman in the full burqa dalek costume on the bus I deliberately sit next to her as a sort of silent protest ( or is it just sexual harrasment)


I doubt it's much of an effective protest. It might just be making the women concerned feel awkward and/or uncomfortable.
Image
User avatar
Aern Rakesh
RS Donator
 
Posts: 13582
Age: 71
Female

Country: UK (London)
United States (us)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to News, Politics & Current Affairs

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest