Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#21  Postby Shrunk » Mar 12, 2013 11:23 am

Blackadder wrote:Yes, as a Muslim, you are allowed to beat your wife lovingly.


But not your husband? Unfair. What if the guy wants to be the bottom?
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#22  Postby Blackadder » Mar 12, 2013 11:36 am

mrjonno wrote:
Shrunk wrote:TBH, reading the various sources on this incident, I'm still not completely clear on what happened. It does appear there was a "women only" section for those who wanted to segregate themselves. But it appears that women were not required to sit there, and could sit in the "mixed" section if they wished, although some reports suggest the "mixed" section was only for "couples."

I'm still not comfortable with making accomodations in a secular university for women who want to (or have been pressured to) segregate themselves. But, even so, that's quite different than having segregation imposed on everyone at the event. At the very least, this should be clarified so we can form a fully informed opinion.



Being a git whenever I see a woman in the full burqa dalek costume on the bus I deliberately sit next to her as a sort of silent protest ( or is it just sexual harrasment)


Only if you are having impure thoughts about her. Or have your cock out.
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#23  Postby Blackadder » Mar 12, 2013 11:42 am

Shrunk wrote:
Blackadder wrote:Yes, as a Muslim, you are allowed to beat your wife lovingly.


But not your husband? Unfair. What if the guy wants to be the bottom?


Allah didn't cover this in the sex manual Koran. BDSM is pretty much verboten in Islam. Unlike screwing child brides, which is apparently a good thing.
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#24  Postby mrjonno » Mar 12, 2013 12:06 pm

Only if you are having impure thoughts about her. Or have your cock out.


The day my thoughts become pure on any matter is the day I die, as for my cock out they won't know as I'm wearing a full burqa as well
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#25  Postby Oeditor » Mar 12, 2013 12:25 pm

Shrunk wrote:According to this account, the seating arrangement was not the only shenanigans the Muslim organizers were up to:

... it emerged that the organiser, Big Debates, was a front for the missionary Islamic Education and Research Academy , which counts among its ‘Permanent Staff’ one Hamza Tzortzis.
<snip>
Meanwhile, a number of closeted ex-Muslims were distraught to discover that they had been hoodwinked into handing over their personal details to an Islamic organisation.
So it looks as though IERA were hiding behind their "Big Debates" front. I wonder whether getting the room booked (and paid for?) by the Chemistry Department was part of the subterfuge?
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#26  Postby quisquose » Mar 12, 2013 12:54 pm

Oeditor wrote:
Shrunk wrote:According to this account, the seating arrangement was not the only shenanigans the Muslim organizers were up to:

... it emerged that the organiser, Big Debates, was a front for the missionary Islamic Education and Research Academy , which counts among its ‘Permanent Staff’ one Hamza Tzortzis.
<snip>
Meanwhile, a number of closeted ex-Muslims were distraught to discover that they had been hoodwinked into handing over their personal details to an Islamic organisation.
So it looks as though IERA were hiding behind their "Big Debates" front. I wonder whether getting the room booked (and paid for?) by the Chemistry Department was part of the subterfuge?


It's really difficult to believe people that go to all this trouble to deceive don't actually know that their religion is in fact bullshit.

They must do, surely.

:scratch:
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#27  Postby Blackadder » Mar 12, 2013 1:04 pm

quisquose wrote:

It's really difficult to believe people that go to all this trouble to deceive don't actually know that their religion is in fact bullshit.

They must do, surely.

:scratch:


My bold. I think that word is the stumbling block. A believer thinks he knows stuff when in fact he believes it. And he disbelieves stuff that deep down he probably knows.

Self-delusion. It's powerful stuff.
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#28  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Mar 13, 2013 4:10 am

My disgust at the ethical cowardice of Universities like UCL knows no bounds. Allowing bigots to practice their foul arts on campus should be beyond the pale. Why don't they also bring back separate buses for blacks? Perhaps sponser some gay-bashing events? Jesus-fucking Christ! :naughty: :doh:
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#29  Postby johnbrandt » Mar 13, 2013 4:31 am

There's an enormous double standard when it comes to what "offends" people...
Not long ago we saw old people being physically abused and pushed to the ground when trying to go to see a talk by Geert Wilders here in Australia, with police fucking standing back and doing nothing about people being stopped from attending a lawful assembly.
Now our country is welcoming this fucktard...
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/muslim_conference_in_strife_despite_excuses_for_the_radicals/
HE imam of the Grand Mosque of Mecca, who has called for the annihilation of Jews, is scheduled to give the keynote address at the Australian Islamic Peace Conference in Melbourne this weekend…
Sheik Sudais, who has called for violent jihad, has been denied entry to the US and Canada after describing Jews as “the scum of humanity” and “pigs and monkeys"…
Federation of Islamic Councils assistant secretary Keysar Trad said there was no comparison to be made between calls for Dutch anti-Islam activist Geert Wilders to be denied a visa on his recent visit to Australia, and similar calls regarding Sheik Sudais.
“One person may have made comments in anger. The other has made it his personal mission to go around the world telling lies about Muslims,” Mr Trad said…
“People can change and sometimes they say comments out of anger which they would retract when they calm down,” he said.

...cont'd...


By the way, Keyser Trad is the lovely chap who blamed women for rape, saying that if a piece of meat is left uncovered then you can't blame the cat for biting it...

I wonder if there will be violent protests by the same professional university protesters who turned up to complain about Wilders...?
I'd bet lefty there won't be...
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#30  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Mar 13, 2013 5:13 am

I am not against freedom of speach, just freedom of action. If some nut job wants to claim females are inferior, fine. iI is fun to shoot such shit down. Compelling people to sit somewhere based on gender [or whatever] is an ACTION.
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#31  Postby Shrunk » Mar 13, 2013 11:55 am

Darwinsbulldog wrote:My disgust at the ethical cowardice of Universities like UCL knows no bounds. Allowing bigots to practice their foul arts on campus should be beyond the pale. Why don't they also bring back separate buses for blacks? Perhaps sponser some gay-bashing events? Jesus-fucking Christ! :naughty: :doh:


At least, in the end, they did the right thing and banned the Islamic organization from any future events.

Just to add: I was raised in a Muslim family, and other than prayers no event that was organized by the mosque was segregated by gender. I'm not sure what is so magic about a lecture hall that the sexes have to be separated, anyway. If any women were to get there from their homes, they would have to ride on unsegregated buses, or walk on unsegregated sidewalks. Then, when the arrive at the hall, they suddenly can't have a man near them on reliigious principle? This was obviously just a "fuck you, in your face" power play by the Islamist organizers, probably part of the tactics of intimidation mentioned in my earlier post.
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#32  Postby Bribase » Mar 13, 2013 12:45 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:My disgust at the ethical cowardice of Universities like UCL knows no bounds. Allowing bigots to practice their foul arts on campus should be beyond the pale. Why don't they also bring back separate buses for blacks? Perhaps sponser some gay-bashing events? Jesus-fucking Christ! :naughty: :doh:


At least, in the end, they did the right thing and banned the Islamic organization from any future events.

Just to add: I was raised in a Muslim family, and other than prayers no event that was organized by the mosque was segregated by gender. I'm not sure what is so magic about a lecture hall that the sexes have to be separated, anyway. If any women were to get there from their homes, they would have to ride on unsegregated buses, or walk on unsegregated sidewalks. Then, when the arrive at the hall, they suddenly can't have a man near them on reliigious principle? This was obviously just a "fuck you, in your face" power play by the Islamist organizers, probably part of the tactics of intimidation mentioned in my earlier post.


My suspicion is that it goes deeper than that. Like creationist debates, iERA's output is largely about spectacle. This can clearly be seen with their youtube videos of stoolies accepting Islam on the basis of a ten minute chat (consisting of the proselytizer doing most of the talking)*. Combine this with iERA's requirement to know the religious affiliation of the attendees and you get the idea. This was in no sense a formal debate, it was an exercise in stacking the deck with believers, segregating them mosque style to remind them that they are in the prescence of Allah and then crowing smugly that Tzortsis won the crowd over with his stellar arguments.

I don't expect to see an undedited video of the debate until iERA have finished claiming victory and their followers have lost interest.

*If you accept the meaning and purpose of the universe inside of a ten minute discussion you haven't thought hard enough about it.
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#33  Postby Fallible » Mar 13, 2013 12:52 pm

How far the mighty Godless of Gower Street have fallen.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#34  Postby chairman bill » Mar 15, 2013 10:17 am

UCL bans Islamic group from campus in row over segregated seating
University takes action after male and female audience members at 'Islam or atheism' debate were segregated by gender
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/15/ucl-bans-islamic-group-over-segregation
A London university has banned an Islamic organisation from taking part in events on its campus after the group hosted a debate with seating segregated by gender.

University College London took the action against the Islamic Education and Research Academy (iERA) after concluding that it had attempted to enforce segregation at the debate on 9 March.

"Islam or Atheism: Which Makes More Sense?" featured Prof Lawrence Krauss, an eminent atheist, and Hamza Andreas Tzortzis, a lecturer on Islam. When Krauss saw people being moved from their seats, he said he would not speak at an event that was segregated and walked out to cheers and boos from the audience. An organiser pursued him and said segregation would be abandoned.

UCL said in a statement: "We do not allow enforced segregation on any grounds [but] it now appears that, despite our clear instructions, attempts were made to enforce segregation at the meeting.

"We are still investigating what actually happened at the meeting but, given iERA's original intentions for a segregated audience, we have concluded that their interests are contrary to UCL's ethos and that we should not allow any further events involving them to take place on UCL premises." (cont)
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#35  Postby Oeditor » Mar 15, 2013 11:16 am

It turns out, according to Butterflies & Wheels, that the woman calling herself "Dr. Aisha Rahman" who somehow booked the room on behalf of the Chemistry Department, is "Miss Aisha Rahman", a postgrad student.
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#36  Postby Shrunk » Mar 15, 2013 11:44 am

Oeditor wrote:It turns out, according to Butterflies & Wheels, that the woman calling herself "Dr. Aisha Rahman" who somehow booked the room on behalf of the Chemistry Department, is "Miss Aisha Rahman", a postgrad student.


Yes, Ophelia Benson is all over this story. In the "picture's worth a thousand words" category, I nominate this:

Image

Her post on the iERA's response is also worth reading.

I will point out a couple areas w/ which I have slight disagreement. Benson repeats the claim that women were "shoved to the back" of the hall. But as best as I can put things together form the fragmented accounts of the incident that appears to not have quite been the case. Rather, it seems there was a section designated "women only" for those who wished to segregate themselves, and from which men were excluded. However, women who did not wish to be segregated could still sit in the "mixed" section. (It is not yet clear to me if there was a similar "men only" section. If so, I would bet anything that it was closer to the front than the women's section.) That's still segregation and still unacceptable, but it's probably a good idea to be as clear as possible about the type of segregation that occurred.

It also seems to me that the University was aware of this arrangement and either approved of it, or at least did not object. If so, I think their decision to ban iERA look more like damage control than a principled response. They should not escape accountability.
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#37  Postby Oeditor » Mar 15, 2013 5:38 pm

Shrunk wrote:I will point out a couple areas w/ which I have slight disagreement. Benson repeats the claim that women were "shoved to the back" of the hall. But as best as I can put things together form the fragmented accounts of the incident that appears to not have quite been the case. Rather, it seems there was a section designated "women only" for those who wished to segregate themselves, and from which men were excluded. However, women who did not wish to be segregated could still sit in the "mixed" section.
Accounts are certainly fragmented, but I don't think anyone has disputed the claims that there were separate queues and entrances for men and women, or that tickets were assigned according to sex. Nor, I think, that there was a separate section for "couples", implying that only men and women associated with each other could sit there. Nor that the question of segregation had been discussed by Krauss before the event and that he considered that he had been misled.
So rather than a mixed audience with a concession for "sisters" if wanted, it sounds much more like a segregated audience with a concession for "couples". No doubt with a devout wish that the couples were married to each other.
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#38  Postby Shrunk » Mar 15, 2013 5:56 pm

Oeditor wrote:Accounts are certainly fragmented, but I don't think anyone has disputed the claims that there were separate queues and entrances for men and women, or that tickets were assigned according to sex. Nor, I think, that there was a separate section for "couples", implying that only men and women associated with each other could sit there. Nor that the question of segregation had been discussed by Krauss before the event and that he considered that he had been misled.
So rather than a mixed audience with a concession for "sisters" if wanted, it sounds much more like a segregated audience with a concession for "couples". No doubt with a devout wish that the couples were married to each other.


That's one of the parts that is unclear to me: Whether men or women who were not in a "couple" could sit in the "mixed" area.

Regardless, even a mixed audience with a concession for "sisters" is still segregation on the basis of gender, and still should be unacceptable to the university. But the impression I get is that iERA were given the message that this would be acceptable, and then having been given that concession exploited it to the fullest. If that's the case, the university needs to own up to their role in this.
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#39  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Mar 15, 2013 6:08 pm

Can someone clarify where this event took place.

I was thinking somewhere like Saudi Arabia or UAE or some other Arab nation, but I read University College of London in the OP. Segregated seating? WTF?
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Re: Lawrence Krauss threatens to walk at islamist debate

#40  Postby mrjonno » Mar 15, 2013 6:14 pm

I can guarantee most large universities will have mosques and possibly synagogues that have gender separation.

Saw one at the University of Sussex when I did a course down there
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