'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

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'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#1  Postby aliihsanasl » Sep 11, 2012 12:38 pm

The founder of the first ever "Pirate Party," Swedish Rick Falkvinge, has drawn the ire of German counterparts after saying child porn should be legalized.


www.hurriyetdailynews.com/legalize-chil ... sCatID=374
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#2  Postby Shrunk » Sep 11, 2012 12:41 pm

ali_ihsan21 wrote:The founder of the first ever "Pirate Party," Swedish Rick Falkvinge, has drawn the ire of German counterparts after saying child porn should be legalized.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/legali ... sCatID=374


I'd like clarification on what he means by "child porn". If he means anything involving an actual child, say in photos or video, then he's way off base. But if he's referring to artwork or writing, then I'd say he has a point.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#3  Postby AndreD » Sep 11, 2012 12:46 pm

A rather silly thing to say in regard to political popularity. As for his actual proposal I could see there being a good reason to perhaps make the pornography laws equal to the age of consent (it's slightly bizarre that you can have sex with someone at 16 but not take sexual photos of them), but it's probably not really a good idea to legalise images depicting what is legally rape.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#4  Postby aliihsanasl » Sep 11, 2012 12:47 pm

Shrunk wrote:
ali_ihsan21 wrote:The founder of the first ever "Pirate Party," Swedish Rick Falkvinge, has drawn the ire of German counterparts after saying child porn should be legalized.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/legali ... sCatID=374


I'd like clarification on what he means by "child porn". If he means anything involving an actual child, say in photos or video, then he's way off base. But if he's referring to artwork or writing, then I'd say he has a point.


I agree, I prefer to think that way too. Nobody can accept the other way imo.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#5  Postby I'm With Stupid » Sep 11, 2012 1:01 pm

AndreD wrote:A rather silly thing to say in regard to political popularity. As for his actual proposal I could see there being a good reason to perhaps make the pornography laws equal to the age of consent (it's slightly bizarre that you can have sex with someone at 16 but not take sexual photos of them), but it's probably not really a good idea to legalise images depicting what is legally rape.

Not really. I think the idea of being able to watch porn when you're 16 is sensible, but starring in porn is a bit different. It creates a permanent record for others to watch, and I'd question whether a 16 year old is mature enough to make that decision. Hell, you can't even star in the TV show at 16 without your parents signing the release form. If we were to change the age of what we consider an adult to 16, then fair enough.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#6  Postby mattthomas » Sep 11, 2012 1:03 pm

Would it be wrong to suggest that anyone who openly states pro kiddy porn points of view should automatically have their PC removed by the police for inspection... as the father of a victim of child abuse, that is my gut reaction.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#7  Postby AndreD » Sep 11, 2012 1:11 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:
AndreD wrote:A rather silly thing to say in regard to political popularity. As for his actual proposal I could see there being a good reason to perhaps make the pornography laws equal to the age of consent (it's slightly bizarre that you can have sex with someone at 16 but not take sexual photos of them), but it's probably not really a good idea to legalise images depicting what is legally rape.

Not really. I think the idea of being able to watch porn when you're 16 is sensible, but starring in porn is a bit different. It creates a permanent record for others to watch, and I'd question whether a 16 year old is mature enough to make that decision. Hell, you can't even star in the TV show at 16 without your parents signing the release form. If we were to change the age of what we consider an adult to 16, then fair enough.


Is there really much of a difference in maturity between 16 and 18 for most people? There's also just a practical argument in that teenagers are already filming and taking stills of themselves and sending it to their boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever, the problem is that they're being criminalised for it when they clearly haven't exploited anyone in the real sense of the word.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#8  Postby Shrunk » Sep 11, 2012 1:12 pm

mattwilson wrote:Would it be wrong to suggest that anyone who openly states pro kiddy porn points of view should automatically have their PC removed by the police for inspection... as the father of a victim of child abuse, that is my gut reaction.


Yes, it would be wrong.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#9  Postby Matt_B » Sep 11, 2012 1:17 pm

mattwilson wrote:Would it be wrong to suggest that anyone who openly states pro kiddy porn points of view should automatically have their PC removed by the police for inspection... as the father of a victim of child abuse, that is my gut reaction.


I can understand why your instincts would lead that way, but on the other hand surely people should have the right to express their opinions - however unpalatable they may be - without threat of sanction. Let's save that instead for the people who we genuinely have reason to suspect are putting children in harms way.

Also, as mentioned above, his comments may have been taken out of context. From what I've read, he appears to be talking about laws which criminalize sexually active young people, which is a complex issue ill suited to hard and fast legislation.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#10  Postby mattthomas » Sep 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Shrunk wrote:
mattwilson wrote:Would it be wrong to suggest that anyone who openly states pro kiddy porn points of view should automatically have their PC removed by the police for inspection... as the father of a victim of child abuse, that is my gut reaction.


Yes, it would be wrong.

Like I said it's my gut reaction, obviously the police would need some supporting evidence but it's just one of those things where my experience affects my rationality... pobodies nerfect :(
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#11  Postby NilsGLindgren » Sep 11, 2012 1:26 pm

Odd that this surfaces now - it relates to what he said in a blogg and in an interview in 2010. And no, it is not correctly understood, apparently. What he did rant against was, in fact, bizarre results that could be the outcome of the laws agaisnt child pornography - he claimed that it would be a (legal) possibility to put somebody in jail for being the owner of photos of him/herself, naked, if under the age of 16. There were other examples, such as, pictures of yourself bathing naked with the kids, or being naked in a sauna, etc. It also related to the laws governing the storage of digital data (he is a founding member of Piratpartiet - arrrh, shipmates) who are, on the whole, against any legislation in regards to things like, who downloads what from whom.
So far noone, to my knowledge, has been charged with possessing child pornography on the grounds of being the owner of pictures of him/herself bathing in a tin bucket at the age of 3, and, I would guess that the law does not really mean to cover that posssibility.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#12  Postby I'm With Stupid » Sep 11, 2012 2:13 pm

AndreD wrote:Is there really much of a difference in maturity between 16 and 18 for most people? There's also just a practical argument in that teenagers are already filming and taking stills of themselves and sending it to their boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever, the problem is that they're being criminalised for it when they clearly haven't exploited anyone in the real sense of the word.

Well firstly, there has to be a cut-off point somewhere. If you want 16 to be the age that we consider someone an adult, then I'm open to that argument, but as long as a 16 year old is legally a minor, I don't think they should be allowed to do porn. I was always under the impression that it was legal for 16 to 18 year old to make pornographic images of themselves for personal use and the use of their partner, and the illegal bit was distributing them to a third party. But on further reading, it seems that this isn't the case (maybe it changed or maybe I misremembered it). But I don't think that reducing the age to 16 would do anything to solve this issue anyway. There would still be 14 and 15 year olds susceptible to the same laws, and all it would do would open 16 year olds to being pressured by powerful companies to engage in sexual acts that they might not be fully comfortable with and might not have fully thought through. I've said before that I believe that legal porn industry does is responsible for far more people being pressured into doing something they're not comfortable with sexually than the legal prostitution industry. After all, it's far easier for a self-employed prostitute to tell a customer they're not going to do something than a porn star to tell the same thing to a big production company.

Interestingly, it did used to be legal for the paedo-hysteria masters The Sun to have 16 year old page 3 girls.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#13  Postby Zwaarddijk » Sep 11, 2012 3:00 pm

NilsGLindgren wrote:Odd that this surfaces now - it relates to what he said in a blogg and in an interview in 2010. And no, it is not correctly understood, apparently. What he did rant against was, in fact, bizarre results that could be the outcome of the laws agaisnt child pornography - he claimed that it would be a (legal) possibility to put somebody in jail for being the owner of photos of him/herself, naked, if under the age of 16. There were other examples, such as, pictures of yourself bathing naked with the kids, or being naked in a sauna, etc. It also related to the laws governing the storage of digital data (he is a founding member of Piratpartiet - arrrh, shipmates) who are, on the whole, against any legislation in regards to things like, who downloads what from whom.
So far noone, to my knowledge, has been charged with possessing child pornography on the grounds of being the owner of pictures of him/herself bathing in a tin bucket at the age of 3, and, I would guess that the law does not really mean to cover that posssibility.


Source criticism - apparently, even rational skeptics need it. Good thing you pointed that out. Doubt anyone learned anything from it, though.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#14  Postby jez9999 » Sep 11, 2012 5:59 pm

I think the laws on possession should at least be relaxed, because it's too easy to stumble across under-16s on the internet accidentally if you're browsing, say, 4chan. You could be extremely conservative in what you browse, and probably avoid it 100%, but I don't like having to clamp down on my own freedom like that.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#15  Postby Varangian » Sep 11, 2012 6:01 pm

"Swedish politician" - yeah, the former leader of a party that got 0.65% of the vote in the last election.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#16  Postby mrjonno » Sep 11, 2012 6:15 pm

At least in the UK i don't think many people think 2 15 year olds or even 2 14 year olds have sex is child abuse it becomes abusive when there is a large age gap.

British consent rules are quite sensible they are nominally 16 but generally ignored by the police if people involved are younger unless its in their interest
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#17  Postby I'm With Stupid » Sep 11, 2012 6:30 pm

jez9999 wrote:I think the laws on possession should at least be relaxed, because it's too easy to stumble across under-16s on the internet accidentally if you're browsing, say, 4chan. You could be extremely conservative in what you browse, and probably avoid it 100%, but I don't like having to clamp down on my own freedom like that.

Perhaps, but have you ever heard of anyone being convicted for having a few pictures on their hard drive? They're usually convicted after a big investigation of their activity over a long time and have images numbering in the thousands, at least based on the media reports I've read. And is it really that easy to accidentally stumble upon child pornography? I did once end up coming across what appeared to be a child porn website, and I just reported it to the Internet Watch Foundation (who never got back to me, incidentally). But once in about 10 years of looking at internet porn isn't a lot, really.

But the UK law specifies "take, make, distribute, show or possess." "Make" would cover creating a copy by saving an image to your hard drive, but to my knowledge, wouldn't include viewing it online (although presumably if they could prove a repeated history of such activity, they'd be able to get you). I think the idea that you could be done for possessing child porn after accidentally viewing it online are fanciful.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#18  Postby purplerat » Sep 11, 2012 6:51 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:
jez9999 wrote:I think the laws on possession should at least be relaxed, because it's too easy to stumble across under-16s on the internet accidentally if you're browsing, say, 4chan. You could be extremely conservative in what you browse, and probably avoid it 100%, but I don't like having to clamp down on my own freedom like that.

Perhaps, but have you ever heard of anyone being convicted for having a few pictures on their hard drive? They're usually convicted after a big investigation of their activity over a long time and have images numbering in the thousands, at least based on the media reports I've read. And is it really that easy to accidentally stumble upon child pornography? I did once end up coming across what appeared to be a child porn website, and I just reported it to the Internet Watch Foundation (who never got back to me, incidentally). But once in about 10 years of looking at internet porn isn't a lot, really.

But the UK law specifies "take, make, distribute, show or possess." "Make" would cover creating a copy by saving an image to your hard drive, but to my knowledge, wouldn't include viewing it online (although presumably if they could prove a repeated history of such activity, they'd be able to get you). I think the idea that you could be done for possessing child porn after accidentally viewing it online are fanciful.

I've seen a number of cases of a single image resulting in a charge. Even cases where a 16 year old sends a photo of themselves to an 18 year old acquaintance or something like that. In the US the laws are in my opinion overly harsh especially when sex offender status comes into play. It's messed up when an 18 year old can have sex with a 16 year old and be ok in the eyes of the law but if that 18 year old has a nude picture of that same 16 year old they are a sex offender.
As far as online viewing and 'possession' or 'making a coping'; at least in the US most jurisdictions will consider a computers cache as constituting possession or having made a copy. I believe there was recently a case in NY where such a charge was ruled against but in most cases it's enough to get somebody arrested.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#19  Postby GT2211 » Sep 11, 2012 7:22 pm

Viewing CP had become legal in NY this summer. IDK if it still is.
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Re: 'Legalize child porn,' Swedish politician says

#20  Postby I'm With Stupid » Sep 11, 2012 8:35 pm

purplerat wrote:
I'm With Stupid wrote:
jez9999 wrote:I think the laws on possession should at least be relaxed, because it's too easy to stumble across under-16s on the internet accidentally if you're browsing, say, 4chan. You could be extremely conservative in what you browse, and probably avoid it 100%, but I don't like having to clamp down on my own freedom like that.

Perhaps, but have you ever heard of anyone being convicted for having a few pictures on their hard drive? They're usually convicted after a big investigation of their activity over a long time and have images numbering in the thousands, at least based on the media reports I've read. And is it really that easy to accidentally stumble upon child pornography? I did once end up coming across what appeared to be a child porn website, and I just reported it to the Internet Watch Foundation (who never got back to me, incidentally). But once in about 10 years of looking at internet porn isn't a lot, really.

But the UK law specifies "take, make, distribute, show or possess." "Make" would cover creating a copy by saving an image to your hard drive, but to my knowledge, wouldn't include viewing it online (although presumably if they could prove a repeated history of such activity, they'd be able to get you). I think the idea that you could be done for possessing child porn after accidentally viewing it online are fanciful.

I've seen a number of cases of a single image resulting in a charge. Even cases where a 16 year old sends a photo of themselves to an 18 year old acquaintance or something like that. In the US the laws are in my opinion overly harsh especially when sex offender status comes into play. It's messed up when an 18 year old can have sex with a 16 year old and be ok in the eyes of the law but if that 18 year old has a nude picture of that same 16 year old they are a sex offender.
As far as online viewing and 'possession' or 'making a coping'; at least in the US most jurisdictions will consider a computers cache as constituting possession or having made a copy. I believe there was recently a case in NY where such a charge was ruled against but in most cases it's enough to get somebody arrested.

I would assume that in all of these cases, they would still have the prove intent. I doubt you can really get prosecuted for having a couple of images in the cache, although it could be used to show that a deliberate or repeated attempt to obtain such materials occurred.

And yes, I accept that it's possible to get done for a single image if the image happens to be of someone known to you. But purely in terms of accidentally stumbling across something online, I very much doubt it.
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