Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#21  Postby Forty Two » Sep 03, 2015 7:45 pm

purplerat wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Cc8t3Zd5E[/youtube]
Can you imagine if at the Democratic debate the question was asked whether candidates believe that the Earth revolves around the sun and it takes a year to do so and even 1 person raised their hand?


Well, they'd be resoundingly ridiculed.

There are a couple of problems with the comparison of that to evolution, though. Evolution is a more complex theory that most people, even those who say they believe in it, don't really understand. So, many people don't accept it because they just don't understand it or they have strange misconceptions about it.

What would people say about "believing in" quantum mechanical theories -- like that particle positions being a probability wave function until there's an observation, when the wave function collapses? that atoms can be in two places at the same time (quantum superposition)?

Do you "believe in" quantum mechanics?

The whole question is wrong to begin with. I don't "believe in" evolution either. I accept it as a good scientific theory which explains the observed phenomenon. I don't "believe" in it.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#22  Postby purplerat » Sep 03, 2015 7:53 pm

Forty Two wrote:
purplerat wrote:
The point is that the crowd, a very liberal crowd, cheered the Truther being thrown out.


And, in the video above, the audience clapped for McCain's correction of the old bat.

Like I said, watch the full clip.

Forty Two wrote:
Most people on the left DON'T recognize the idiocy of trutherism, not when more than 1/2 of Democrats believed that Bush knew about it ahead of time and let it happen. That was just the 51+% who thought it was very likely or somewhat likely. The "neutral" and/or "I don't knows" weren't included in that, and you know there were some.

In another poll - Democrats in America are evenly divided on the question of whether George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 terrorist attacks in advance. Thirty-five percent (35%) of Democrats believe he did know, 39% say he did not know, and 26% are not sure. - http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... in_advance That's 61% either "yes he knew" or "not sure if he knew" -- where is the "majority that "recognize the idiocy?"

FWIW, thinking Bush had some advance knowledge of the attacks if not the same as Trutherism. There are (or at least were) legitimate questions as to whether there may have been advance intelligence about an attack that was not acted upon. That is wholly different from believing Bush was in on the attacks. It lacks the often most critical piece of any conspiracy theory which is to confuse incompetence with conspiracy. I would venture to guess a far number of "Bush knew/not sure" fall into the camp of putting it off to incompetence, for which there is plenty of evidence even if not specific to 9/11.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#23  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Sep 03, 2015 7:58 pm

Forty Two wrote:John McCain's answer to the crackpot was intended by McCain to say that no, indeed, Obama is not an Arab.

What makes me laugh about that is that if you listen to the lady's statement "He's an Arab" and then take McCain's statement literally, "no no...he's a decent, intelligent, family man ...." (or words to that effect), then by implication McCain is saying that Arabs are not decent, intelligent, family men.... lol


Yeah, I never thought that McCain's answer was implying anything about Arabs and was well intentioned. I did agree at the time, that the criticism of his response was unfair and misguided.

However, he probably should have said something in defense of Arab people as well, but that probably wouldn't have been politically wise given the republican voter base, which is what the video is really highlighting.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#24  Postby purplerat » Sep 03, 2015 8:02 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote:
Forty Two wrote:John McCain's answer to the crackpot was intended by McCain to say that no, indeed, Obama is not an Arab.

What makes me laugh about that is that if you listen to the lady's statement "He's an Arab" and then take McCain's statement literally, "no no...he's a decent, intelligent, family man ...." (or words to that effect), then by implication McCain is saying that Arabs are not decent, intelligent, family men.... lol


Yeah, I never thought that McCain's answer was implying anything about Arabs and was well intentioned. I did agree at the time, that the criticism of his response was unfair and misguided.

However, he probably should have said something in defense of Arab people as well, but that probably wouldn't have been politically wise given the republican voter base, which is what the video is really highlighting.

If you watch the longer video with the first question and response (where he gets booed) the first question isn't about being an Arab and he provides the same answer. His repeating that answer almost verbatim sounds like it was a general canned response to questions about Obama "being scary" and he probably didn't even consider the Arab component of it.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#25  Postby purplerat » Sep 03, 2015 8:05 pm

Forty Two wrote:
purplerat wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Cc8t3Zd5E[/youtube]
Can you imagine if at the Democratic debate the question was asked whether candidates believe that the Earth revolves around the sun and it takes a year to do so and even 1 person raised their hand?


Well, they'd be resoundingly ridiculed.

There are a couple of problems with the comparison of that to evolution, though. Evolution is a more complex theory that most people, even those who say they believe in it, don't really understand. So, many people don't accept it because they just don't understand it or they have strange misconceptions about it.

What would people say about "believing in" quantum mechanical theories -- like that particle positions being a probability wave function until there's an observation, when the wave function collapses? that atoms can be in two places at the same time (quantum superposition)?

Do you "believe in" quantum mechanics?

The whole question is wrong to begin with. I don't "believe in" evolution either. I accept it as a good scientific theory which explains the observed phenomenon. I don't "believe" in it.

Do you really think that's why they raised their hands?

Keep in mind that the question was asked because it was one of the most popular questions they had gotten from viewers. Do you think the large number of people asking that question were looking for a scientifically literate response?
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#26  Postby Evolving » Sep 03, 2015 8:09 pm

Forty Two wrote:John McCain's answer to the crackpot was intended by McCain to say that no, indeed, Obama is not an Arab.

What makes me laugh about that is that if you listen to the lady's statement "He's an Arab" and then take McCain's statement literally, "no no...he's a decent, intelligent, family man ...." (or words to that effect), then by implication McCain is saying that Arabs are not decent, intelligent, family men.... lol


He actually tells the woman that Obama is a "decent, family man, citizen". I take it that "citizen" is supposed to counter "Arab", and the rest springs from a desire on the part of McCain to be gracious to his opponent and not let the campaign descend into a slanging match.

The video reminds me of why, at the time, I thought that, as Republicans go, McCain was pretty good.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#27  Postby crank » Sep 03, 2015 8:32 pm

The repuglicans are delusional on a lot of issues. Some, if not a majority can be blamed on faux news and their coordinated push of some talkingpoint. The most glaring example, one so bad they actually corrected it, was the no-go zone fiasco. Did you know Birmingham UK was so overrun with muslims that cops wouldn't go there? I saw a least a couple of montages of virtually every on-air talent saying 'no go zone', and the interview they had with their 'expert', where he went into all kinds of details of a fantasy. And there's Benghazi, IRS, Obama care BS, Obama blamed for almost everything. And then there's O'Really?'s rabid fans who believe him when it's been proven without doubt that a big chunk of what he says is a lie. And how many of them actually believe faux news is a legitimate news organization? There talkingpoints get repeated, with numerous members of the House of Senate, other government and state officials joining in, Stewart used to expose these regularly with brilliant video montages, at some level of repetition a large percentage of the repuglican base have their mind set, and they don't unset.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#28  Postby SkyMutt » Sep 03, 2015 9:10 pm

Forty Two wrote:Democrat candidate Dennis Kucinich was a 9/11 Truther - "Do we see a pattern here? 9/11? Katrina? They knew something was going to happen and they didn't act." Kucinich agrees with the "Bush had foreknowledge" crowd.


Context for the statement by Kucinich quoted above:

I want to call to the attention of the House the juxtaposition of two news stories. One [..] relating to 9/11 911 9-11. It says 'Federal officials where repeatedly warned in the months before the September 11, 2001 terror attacks that Osama bin Laden and Al-Queda were planning aircraft hijacking suicide attempts according to a new report that the Bush administration had been repressing'. And this from the front page of the Washington post, 'a newly leaked video recording the high level government deliberation the day before Katrina hit shows disaster officials infatically warning President bush that the storm posed a catastrophic threat to new Orleans and the gulf coast, and a grim faced bush personally assuring state leaders that his administration was fully prepared [..] to help'.

Do we see a pattern here? 9-11? Katrina? They knew something was going to happen and they didn't act. They knew that if they went into Iraq that we were looking at a disaster, that there was no way we were going to be able to run that country. They know that global climate change poses a threat to the entire planet, nothing is being done, a pattern of recklessness, indifference, callousness. The implications are deadly for the people of the United States.

[source]


Not quite the same line of thinking as that associated with "Truthers." In context, it is obvious that Kucinich is describing negligence, not complicity.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said that while President Bush was told last summer [2001] that bin Laden's al Qaeda network might hijack planes, "until the attack took place, I think it's fair to say that no one envisioned that [using planes as suicide bombs] as a possibility."

[source]
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#29  Postby purplerat » Sep 03, 2015 9:26 pm

Do we see a pattern here? 9-11? Katrina? They knew something was going to happen and they didn't act.


You'd think that quote alone would make it obvious enough that he wasn't claiming Bush was in on the attacks. Unless you think Kucinich also believes Bush has the power to cause hurricanes.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#30  Postby Willie71 » Sep 05, 2015 4:44 am

purplerat wrote:
that's a different issue, of course. the post about "majority of Republicans" refers to regular citizens, not candidates. So, the relevant comparison is between the stupidity of rank-and-file Republicans with the stupidity of rank-and-file Democrats.

BTW, I don't think the comparison is between rank-and-file stupid people. There are dumb people on sides.

What I think the comparison is (or should be) between people willing to believe - at least on the surface level - near anything if it supports their dislike for "the other side". That seems to me to be more of a right wing tendency than anything else. Simply look at the constant stream of just ridiculous lies the right wing comes up with about Obama. I'm not even talking about normal political shit but actual strange and completely incredulous stories which get passed around in right wing circles. Shit that makes Birtherism look sane. And the rank and file right wingers eat it up not because they are convinced of the validity but because it confirms their negative opinion of the other side.

I don't see that happening on the left or with Democrats. But maybe that's because Republicans provide enough ridiculous fodder without having to make anything up.


This will be right up your alley. I've read about 20 of the articles he used for this book, and the results are pretty compelling. Facts and evidence simply are simply irrelevant, which is why many of these threads run on for pages, even after compelling evidence is raised.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republican_Brain
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#31  Postby crank » Sep 05, 2015 8:03 am

Willie71 wrote:
purplerat wrote:
that's a different issue, of course. the post about "majority of Republicans" refers to regular citizens, not candidates. So, the relevant comparison is between the stupidity of rank-and-file Republicans with the stupidity of rank-and-file Democrats.

BTW, I don't think the comparison is between rank-and-file stupid people. There are dumb people on sides.

What I think the comparison is (or should be) between people willing to believe - at least on the surface level - near anything if it supports their dislike for "the other side". That seems to me to be more of a right wing tendency than anything else. Simply look at the constant stream of just ridiculous lies the right wing comes up with about Obama. I'm not even talking about normal political shit but actual strange and completely incredulous stories which get passed around in right wing circles. Shit that makes Birtherism look sane. And the rank and file right wingers eat it up not because they are convinced of the validity but because it confirms their negative opinion of the other side.

I don't see that happening on the left or with Democrats. But maybe that's because Republicans provide enough ridiculous fodder without having to make anything up.


This will be right up your alley. I've read about 20 of the articles he used for this book, and the results are pretty compelling. Facts and evidence simply are simply irrelevant, which is why many of these threads run on for pages, even after compelling evidence is raised.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republican_Brain


There is a lot of important info in that, info atheist should understand. It's related to work by Jonathan Haidt and others, it should really be called the conservative brain. It's my idea that conservative brains are, by their nature, prone to delusional thinking, due to a number of things, primarily that they are manichean and can't deal with ambiguity, authoritarian, loyalty freaks, purity/sanctity freaks, and very suspicious of new&different -- not open to new ideas. These qualities make you very very likely to fall into a reality that isn't the one the rest of the world lives in. It's easy to see how that leads to excessive tribalism, letting preachers dictate what you believe, etc etc. Possibly the most dangerous critters on the earth at the moment considering how this enables climate change denial.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#32  Postby Willie71 » Sep 05, 2015 9:51 pm

crank wrote:
Willie71 wrote:
purplerat wrote:
that's a different issue, of course. the post about "majority of Republicans" refers to regular citizens, not candidates. So, the relevant comparison is between the stupidity of rank-and-file Republicans with the stupidity of rank-and-file Democrats.

BTW, I don't think the comparison is between rank-and-file stupid people. There are dumb people on sides.

What I think the comparison is (or should be) between people willing to believe - at least on the surface level - near anything if it supports their dislike for "the other side". That seems to me to be more of a right wing tendency than anything else. Simply look at the constant stream of just ridiculous lies the right wing comes up with about Obama. I'm not even talking about normal political shit but actual strange and completely incredulous stories which get passed around in right wing circles. Shit that makes Birtherism look sane. And the rank and file right wingers eat it up not because they are convinced of the validity but because it confirms their negative opinion of the other side.

I don't see that happening on the left or with Democrats. But maybe that's because Republicans provide enough ridiculous fodder without having to make anything up.


This will be right up your alley. I've read about 20 of the articles he used for this book, and the results are pretty compelling. Facts and evidence simply are simply irrelevant, which is why many of these threads run on for pages, even after compelling evidence is raised.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republican_Brain


There is a lot of important info in that, info atheist should understand. It's related to work by Jonathan Haidt and others, it should really be called the conservative brain. It's my idea that conservative brains are, by their nature, prone to delusional thinking, due to a number of things, primarily that they are manichean and can't deal with ambiguity, authoritarian, loyalty freaks, purity/sanctity freaks, and very suspicious of new&different -- not open to new ideas. These qualities make you very very likely to fall into a reality that isn't the one the rest of the world lives in. It's easy to see how that leads to excessive tribalism, letting preachers dictate what you believe, etc etc. Possibly the most dangerous critters on the earth at the moment considering how this enables climate change denial.


Higher levels of dopamine and a larger amygdala leaves one prone to religiosity and a heightened fear response. Typical conservative mantra.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#33  Postby Onyx8 » Sep 05, 2015 11:14 pm

Forty Two wrote:It is bizarre, of course, and Obama clearly was born in Hawaii and is a Christian.

The explanation, though, is that in politics, the unwashed masses tend to believe the worst about their opposition, and conspiracy theories are very compelling to a large chunk of the population.

People believe stupid shit. Something like 1/3 to 45% believe that astrology is scientific. http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/ ... ology-dumb Democrats are more likely to believe astrology is scientific -- http://hotair.com/archives/2014/02/17/s ... d-the-sun/

Similarly, more than half of Democrats apparently don't know the Earth revolves around the sun and it takes a year to do so. http://www.ijreview.com/2014/02/118054- ... -question/

On the events of 9/11, the Democrats had some weird beliefs too --
http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith ... new-035224

"How likely is it that people in the federal government either assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action to stop the attacks because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East?" the poll asked.

A full 22.6% of Democrats said it was "very likely." Another 28.2% called it "somewhat likely."


So, more than half of Democrats....

Fully 35 percent of Democrats believe George W. Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... z3kh2g3XXO
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That last one was bullshit, you can pull that on just about anyone who didn't pay attention in school. It's not particular to greenies. My son likes to pull that one with H2O or NaCl on any adult present, it usually works.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#34  Postby chango369 » Sep 05, 2015 11:31 pm

Onyx8 wrote:

That last one was bullshit, you can pull that on just about anyone who didn't pay attention in school. It's not particular to greenies. My son likes to pull that one with H2O or NaCl on any adult present, it usually works.


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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#35  Postby Onyx8 » Sep 05, 2015 11:33 pm

It was cheap shot from Gillette.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#36  Postby Animavore » Sep 06, 2015 1:48 pm

Penn & Teller are AGW denialists and anti-environmentalists. The episode of Bullshit was terrible, contained every bad argument from the denialist side, and was highly irresponsible and confusing coming from an otherwise good debunking program. Talk about a sleight of hand.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#37  Postby Onyx8 » Sep 06, 2015 3:05 pm

Yep. His libertarian shtick got the better of him.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#38  Postby crank » Sep 06, 2015 3:25 pm

Libertarians are probably more delusional than rightwingnut religious freaks. The difference is that the religious freaks are moronically delusional and the libertarians are more intelligently delusional, but that can vary by issue.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#39  Postby laklak » Sep 06, 2015 5:31 pm

Trying to pigeonhole Libertarians is another exercise in cat-herding. I sometimes use "Libertarian" vs "libertarian", but even that's too all encompassing. There are more flavors of Libertarianism than there are Protestant Christian sects.
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Re: Majority Of Republicans Think Obama’s A Muslim

#40  Postby crank » Sep 06, 2015 5:57 pm

laklak wrote:Trying to pigeonhole Libertarians is another exercise in cat-herding. I sometimes use "Libertarian" vs "libertarian", but even that's too all encompassing. There are more flavors of Libertarianism than there are Protestant Christian sects.


That I'll agree with you on. Hell, there's quite a few 'Catholic' varieties as well. I don't remember the details, but what the local priests preach in areas rife with Santerism sure ain't what I learned in my 8 years of catholic school. But if you're in the middle of an argument, it isn't close to practical trying to caveat and condition and case every term or assumption etc.
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