Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

including Unions

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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#21  Postby Panderos » Apr 15, 2012 1:07 pm

Of course Milliband is acting out of self interest. He's an ape. The question is, does the idea have merit?

The £5,000, applied in a reasonable way (no bulk donations) seems like an ok idea to me. But what stops donors from banding together and withholding funding if x or y policy is not enacted? Seems hard to avoid donor influence unless you remove it entirely.
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#22  Postby Strontium Dog » Apr 15, 2012 1:20 pm

This does sum it up very well really:

Conservative housing minister Grant Shapps told BBC One's Sunday Politics that, in years other than when a general election was held, Mr Miliband's party would lose only 1% of funding.

He added: "We are very, very keen to reform party funding. It's the unions that have been blocking it and, of course, funding the Labour leader."

And Liberal Democrat deputy leader Simon Hughes said: "We're pleased that Labour has finally recognised that big money should be taken out of politics and that this includes trade unions.

"But questions remain over how committed Labour is to real reform. Why does Ed Miliband still disagree with the Kelly proposals that people should have the freedom to opt in to donating to the Labour Party, rather than the complex system of opting out?"
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#23  Postby chairman bill » Apr 15, 2012 1:22 pm

The complex system of opting out? What the fuck is Hughes on about - you fill in a form when you join, tick a box to opt-out. If you're already paying a political levy, you get a form, fill it in & opt-out. Not exactly rocket science, but maybe beyond a fuckwitted LibDem MP
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#24  Postby Jakov » Apr 15, 2012 1:45 pm

chairman bill, they think reading and ticking is too complex for the working class.

It's a good idea but the influence of the right on British politics is much deeper than just donors to the Conservative Party.
It is ownership of newspapers, funding of numerous think tanks like the Tax Payers Alliance, the dominance of their PR firms and lobbyists.


Okay lets look at some numbers. Donations from individual members of the union Unite, the biggest in the country, accounted for less than £60,000 for the Labour party.

Compare this with health secretary Andrew Lansley accepting a donation of £21000 from one individual, John Nash, the chairman of private healthcare provider Care UK.
Then there's the £5.1 million donated to the Conservative Party by Lord Ashcroft.

In light of this, you have to wonder why Labour funding by trade unions is being focussed on, while funding of the Tory party by the rich is ignored.
Don't let the right frame the debate like this. Every time someone brings up trade union funding, compare it with conservative party funding and quote numbers. You'll win if you do this.

Even the LibDems know this, remember one of their reasons for going into the coalition "The Conservatives were the only party with enough money to fight another election". That's the problem with capitalists, they have all the capital.
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#25  Postby ED209 » Apr 15, 2012 1:47 pm

Who exactly are these people voluntarily joining organisations that are explicitly affiliated with the labour party, yet dismayed to find that this means they are supporting the labour party by proxy?

Who would join a union in order to safeguard their own working conditions (as to workplace rights, pay, safety etc), but then demand an element of their fees funds a party that will undermine them at every opportunity, instead of the party that their chosen union has always been expressly affiliated with - and why isn't the market providing new 'tory unions' for those precious little individuals?

Or if the parties not in receipt of union funding think it so democratically necessary to reduce a source of funding for the party that is, why don't they compete for that money by not having quite so many policies that make them widely reviled by the general population? Perhaps they just believe that a voluntary £3 donation from a working person is by definition 'filthy, corrupting money' in a way that a large windfall from a bank or fugitive criminal, or charging a £250k levy for access to the party leadership is not.
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#26  Postby Strontium Dog » Apr 15, 2012 1:48 pm

chairman bill wrote:The complex system of opting out? What the fuck is Hughes on about - you fill in a form when you join, tick a box to opt-out. If you're already paying a political levy, you get a form, fill it in & opt-out. Not exactly rocket science, but maybe beyond a fuckwitted LibDem MP


So you have to go through the trouble of getting a form, filling it in, sending it off etc. And anyone who is a member of one of the unions who sustain the Labour Party will know how difficult it very often is to get the form, how local branches typically don't carry copies of it, assuming they've even actually heard of its existence.

I find it ironic and amusing that the people asserting that jumping through hoops for the sake of a measly £3 a year is no great effort are the same ones who criticise the government for "making things difficult" for benefit claimants who are seeking thousands of pounds a year from the taxpayer.
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#27  Postby Strontium Dog » Apr 15, 2012 1:54 pm

ED209 wrote:Who exactly are these people voluntarily joining organisations that are explicitly affiliated with the labour party, yet dismayed to find that this means they are supporting the labour party by proxy?

Who would join a union in order to safeguard their own working conditions (as to workplace rights, pay, safety etc), but then demand an element of their fees funds a party that will undermine them at every opportunity, instead of the party that their chosen union has always been expressly affiliated with - and why isn't the market providing new 'tory unions' for those precious little individuals?

Or if the parties not in receipt of union funding think it so democratically necessary to reduce a source of funding for the party that is, why don't they compete for that money by not having quite so many policies that make them widely reviled by the general population? Perhaps they just believe that a voluntary £3 donation from a working person is by definition 'filthy, corrupting money' in a way that a large windfall from a bank or fugitive criminal, or charging a £250k levy for access to the party leadership is not.


So many strawmen, so little time.

It is absolutely disgraceful that someone should have to affiliate themselves with a political party in order to gain workplace protections.

Someone should ask themself if they would be as keen to support opt-out schemes if unions were all affiliated to the Tories. We all know the answer to that one of course. Total hypocrisy as usual.
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#28  Postby mrjonno » Apr 15, 2012 2:05 pm

It's a bit silly as the parties basically raise money by completely different means there is absolutely no way to reform donations without screwing one of them over.

Labour raises small amounts money from lots people not being arsed to say I don't want to donate, the Tories raise money from industry and individual donations from rich individuals. Neither are ideal of course

I'm quite happy to tax payer funded parties but only if that party can get a minimum 25% of seats in parliament (ie the Lib Dem's get nothing)
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#29  Postby chairman bill » Apr 15, 2012 2:30 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:I find it ironic and amusing that the people asserting that jumping through hoops for the sake of a measly £3 a year is no great effort are the same ones who criticise the government for "making things difficult" for benefit claimants who are seeking thousands of pounds a year from the taxpayer.


I find it quite disconcerting that an otherwise intelligent person should post such complete bollocks. And misrepresentational bollocks at that. Complaints have been made, not about making it difficult to claim, but that the coalition have been content to eradicate a whole swathe of benefits for disabled people, and in terms of making things difficult, we're talking about imposing test upon test, applying restrictive rules & requirements, again, on disabled people. If you're really suggesting that this has any resemeblance to filling in a fucking form, you really are out of touch with the coalition assualt on the disabled.
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#30  Postby chairman bill » Apr 15, 2012 2:36 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:So many strawmen, so little time.
Yet no doubt you'll try to cram a few in ... oh, here we go

It is absolutely disgraceful that someone should have to affiliate themselves with a political party in order to gain workplace protections.
But that's not the case. Offering this strawman is really beneath you, but doesn't surprise me. Quite simply, it isn't the case. Some unions aren't affiliated, and those that are offer an easy opt-out of the political levy, only a fraction of which goes to Labour even in the case of affiliated unions. Nobody has to affiliate themselves to a party for workplace protection. However, it is the case that just about every advance in workers' rights over the last century or so, has come about because of Trades Union activity & Labour government action. Often in face of Tory & Liberal opposition.

Someone should ask themself if they would be as keen to support opt-out schemes if unions were all affiliated to the Tories. We all know the answer to that one of course. Total hypocrisy as usual.
That's a clever (i.e. fucking stupid) rhetorical device, SD. Propose a hypothetical scenario, decide for yourself how others would respond to that scenario, then condemn them for the action you've attributed to them. Well done :clap:
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#31  Postby campermon » Apr 15, 2012 2:52 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:

It is absolutely disgraceful that someone should have to affiliate themselves with a political party in order to gain workplace protections.



Eh?

I am a member of a union and I contribute to its political fund. My union is not affiliated to any political party.

:)
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#32  Postby Emmeline » Apr 15, 2012 3:53 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
It is absolutely disgraceful that someone should have to affiliate themselves with a political party in order to gain workplace protections.

Yes it would be if it were true but it isn't is it.
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#33  Postby Emmeline » Apr 15, 2012 3:55 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
By the way, I LOVE a UK political thread on Ratskep. It brings all the boys out for a milkshake... :)

... and girls ;)
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#34  Postby Strontium Dog » Apr 15, 2012 4:07 pm

mrjonno wrote:I'm quite happy to tax payer funded parties but only if that party can get a minimum 25% of seats in parliament (ie the Lib Dem's get nothing)


The usual contempt for democracy, I see.

chairman bill wrote:But that's not the case. Offering this strawman is really beneath you, but doesn't surprise me. Quite simply, it isn't the case. Some unions aren't affiliated, and those that are offer an easy opt-out of the political levy, only a fraction of which goes to Labour even in the case of affiliated unions. Nobody has to affiliate themselves to a party for workplace protection.


Not all unions are affiliated to Labour, but since I didn't say that, you are again advancing a strawman. The fact is that in many workplaces, the resident union is a Labour affiliate.

chairman bill wrote:However, it is the case that just about every advance in workers' rights over the last century or so, has come about because of Trades Union activity & Labour government action. Often in face of Tory & Liberal opposition.


It's just not true.

chairman bill wrote:That's a clever (i.e. fucking stupid) rhetorical device, SD. Propose a hypothetical scenario, decide for yourself how others would respond to that scenario, then condemn them for the action you've attributed to them. Well done :clap:


Don't even pretend your attitude to opt in vs opt out would be the same. That shit just does not wash.
If a liberal party does something, then that act, by definition, is a liberal one. The only alternative is that they are not a liberal party.

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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#35  Postby campermon » Apr 15, 2012 4:19 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Not all unions are affiliated to Labour, but since I didn't say that, you are again advancing a strawman. The fact is that in many workplaces, the resident union is a Labour affiliate.


If the 'resident' union in a work place is a Labour affiliate, workers can join another union that is not.

From wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trade_unions

'Current Unions

Accord
Advance
Aegis
Alliance for Finance
Aspect
Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen
Associated Train Crew Union
Association for Clinical Biochemistry
Association for College Management
Association of Educational Psychologists
Association of Headteachers and Deputes in Scotland
Association of Licensed Aircraft Engineers
Association of Local Authority Chief Executives
Association of Management and Professional Staffs
Association of Principal Fire Officers
Association of Professional Ambulance Personnel
Association of Professional Music Therapists in Great Britain
Association of Revenue and Customs
Association of School and College Leaders
Association of Somerset Inseminators
Association of Teachers and Lecturers
Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union
Balfour Beatty Group Staff Association
Belfast Airport Police Association
Boots Pharmacists Association
Britannia Staff Union
British Air Line Pilots' Association
British Association of Colliery Management
British Association of Dental Nurses
British Association of Journalists
British Association of Occupational Therapists
British Dental Association
British Dietetic Association
British Medical Association
British Orthoptic Society
Broadcasting, Entertainment, Cinematograph and Theatre Union
Chartered Society of Physiotherapy
Cheshire Building Society Staff Association
City Screen Staff Forum
Communication Workers Union
Community
Community and District Nursing Association
Connect
Council of Civil Service Unions
Currys Supply Chain Staff Association
Dental Practitioners Association
Derbyshire Group Staff Union
Diageo Staff Association
Educational Institute of Scotland
Engineering Officers Technical Association
EQUITY
FDA (trade union)
Federation of Professional Railway Staff
Fire Brigades Union
Fire Officers Association
G4S Justice Services Staff Association
Gallaher Sales Staff Association
General Federation of Trade Unions
GMB
Guild of Professional Teachers of Dancing
Harrods Staff Union
The Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference
Hospital Consultants and Specialists Association
Immigration Service Union
IMPACT
Independent Democratic Union
Independent Federation of Nursing in Scotland
Independent Workers Union
Industrial Workers of the World – British Isles
Institute of Football Management and Administration
Institute of Journalists Trade Union
International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Associations
Irish Bank Officials Association
Irish National Teachers' Organisation
Lawson Mardon Star Ltd Managerial Staff Association
Lecturers Employment Advice and Action Fellowship
LEGION
Leeds Building Society Staff Association
Leek United Building Society Staff Association
Leicestershire Overmen Deputies and Shotfirers Association
Lloyds TSB Group Union
Locum Doctors Association
Lough Neagh Fishermen's Association
Musicians Union
NAPO
National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers
National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers (South Wales Area)
National Association of Co-operative Officials
National Association of Head Teachers
National Association of NFU Group Secretaries
National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers
National Federation of Sub-Postmasters
National House Building Council Staff Association
National Society for Education in Art and Design
National Union of Journalists
National Union of Mineworkers
National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers
National Union of Students (NUS)
National Union of Teachers
Nationwide Group Staff Union
Nautilus
Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance
NISA
North of England Zoological Society Sraff Association
Palm Paper Staff Association
PDA Union
POA
Prison Governors Association
Prison Service Union
Prison Staff Association
Professional Association of Cabin Crew Employees
Professional Cricketers' Association
Professional Footballers' Association
Professional Rugby Players Association
Prospect
Public and Commercial Services Union
Retail Book Association
Retained Firefighters Union
Retired Officers Association
Royal College of Midwives
Royal College of Nursing
RSPB Staff Association
Scarborough Building Society Staff Association
Scottish Artists Union
Scottish Carpet Workers Union
Scottish Secondary Teachers' Association
Services, Industrial, Professional & Technical Union
Shield Guarding Staff Association
Skipton Staff Association
Society of Authors
Society of Chiropodists and Podiatrists
Society of Radiographers
Society of Union Employees (UNISON)
Solidarity
Staff Association of Bank of Baroda (UK Region)
Staff Union Dunfermline Building Society
Staff Union West Bromwich Building Society
Transport Salaried Staffs' Association
UBAC
UDW
UFS
Ulster Teachers' Union
Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru
Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians
Union of Country Sports Workers
Union of Democratic Mineworkers
Union of General & Volunteer Workers
Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers
UNISON
United Road Transport Union
Unite - the Union
Unity
United and Independent Union
University and College Union
VOICE
Warwick International Staff Association
Welsh Rugby Players Association
Whatman Staff Association
Workers Uniting
Writers' Guild of Great Britain
Yorkshire Independent Staff Association'

Of which, these are the 15 that are affiliated to the Labour party;

From http://www.labour.org.uk/tulo

'TULO (The Trade Union & Labour Party Liaison Organisation) is the umbrella organisation that coordinates the activities of the 15 trade unions who affiliate to the Labour party.

Our website is http://www.unionstogether.org.uk/ and on it you can find details of how to build strong links between your CLP and the trade union branches in your area.

The trade unions who are affiliated and details of what industries they represent are:

ASLEF - Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers - (railways – drivers, operational supervisors and staff)

BECTU - Broadcasting, Entertainment, Cinematograph and Theatre Union - (broadcasting, film, video, theatre, cinema and related sectors)

BFAWU - Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union - (food)

COMMUNITY - (industries in and around steel, metal and textile communities)

CWU - Communication Workers Union - (post and telecommunications)

GMB - Britain’s General Union - (general workers in public and private sectors)

MU - Musicians Union - (performers, writers and teachers in the music industry)

NACODS - National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers - (mining)

NUM - National Union of Mineworkers - (mining)

TSSA - Transport Salaried Staffs’ Association - (railways, London Underground, travel, haulage, shipping)

UCATT - Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians - (construction and building)

UNISON - The Public Service Union - (for all those providing services to the public whether employed in the public, private or voluntary sectors)

UNITE - (general workers in public and private sectors)

UNITY - (ceramics industry)

USDAW - Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied USDAW Workers - (retail, distributive and related industries)

GFTU – GFTU is the federation for specialist unions and its members include BECTU, BFAWU, COMMUNITY, MU, NACODS & UNITY. '
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#36  Postby ED209 » Apr 15, 2012 4:35 pm

GTFO! ;)

Emmeline wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:
It is absolutely disgraceful that someone should have to affiliate themselves with a political party in order to gain workplace protections.

Yes it would be if it were true but it isn't is it.



I have never been a member of any union - I understand they are fantastic, but my particular racket is not really unionised, and the employee/employer balance of power is quite equitable in any case. I enjoy the same statutory protections as anyone else, mainly thanks to the historic efforts of unions, the wider labour movement and party, and the EU so I hear. If I wanted the extra leverage that union representation would bring to me as an individual, and the union has decided to support labour, then I either go along with that (for the sake of £3, and I'd still have a fucking opt-out, anyway!) or not join.

Anything else is just hypocrisy, surely. If someone doesn't like how unions are all union-y, then they probably shouldn't join one. Even if they do join one for wholly selfish reasons, as a union member they remain free to vote for, and donate to, parties set on the denigration and destruction of their work environment if they wish. Most people can understand how that is a bit self-defeating, though.
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#37  Postby Strontium Dog » Apr 15, 2012 4:39 pm

campermon wrote:If the 'resident' union in a work place is a Labour affiliate, workers can join another union that is not.


No, they can't, which is exactly the point I'm making. The vast majority of workplaces only recognise a single union. So for instance, my workplace recognises PCS which, fortunately for me, isn't a Labour front organisation.

You are a teacher, which means you are one of the privileged few to actually have the option of several unions.
If a liberal party does something, then that act, by definition, is a liberal one. The only alternative is that they are not a liberal party.

Someone earning £1m pa will pay £381k more tax on their income under the coalition than under Labour
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#38  Postby Strontium Dog » Apr 15, 2012 4:46 pm

ED209 wrote:I have never been a member of any union


That much is obvious, since you appear to have no understanding of how they function.

ED209 wrote:If someone doesn't like how unions are all union-y, then they probably shouldn't join one. Even if they do join one for wholly selfish reasons, as a union member they remain free to vote for, and donate to, parties set on the denigration and destruction of their work environment if they wish. Most people can understand how that is a bit self-defeating, though.


So funny that you refer to the people who put the needs of the country and taxpayers ahead of their own personal enrichment as the selfish ones, when it's clearly the other way round. About par for the course though.
If a liberal party does something, then that act, by definition, is a liberal one. The only alternative is that they are not a liberal party.

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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#39  Postby campermon » Apr 15, 2012 4:50 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
campermon wrote:If the 'resident' union in a work place is a Labour affiliate, workers can join another union that is not.


No, they can't, which is exactly the point I'm making.


Workers can join another union, whether that union is 'recognised' or not.

Should a union be not recognised and if there are enough employees in that union, then there is scope to make tha union recognised by statute.
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Re: Miliband proposes £5000 limit on party donations

#40  Postby Panderos » Apr 15, 2012 4:59 pm

Why involve the unions at all?
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