Obama is actually intelligent

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Obama is actually intelligent

#1  Postby UtilityMonster » Jul 14, 2011 5:12 am

People on this board have long bemoaned Obama's willingness to compromise. You claim that this is not the president you supported. I hate to break it to you, but it is your fault for expecting a god rather than a human being who is intelligent. People who follow politics closely and understand political strategy like virtually everyone on MSNBC support Obama (even though they occasionally express disappointments here and there, as should be expected with any leader, something many of you fail to recognize) and realize that it is impossible to achieve all desired goals when you have a Republican controlled House. Of course, none of you have the faintest idea of what it takes to actually run for office and win, so you suggest he do things that are politically suicidal but "correct" according to you. If he just defended them to the death, he would get reelected, right? Make the case, Obama! Well, in case you haven't noticed, the American people don't respond well to logic. Simply taking hard line positions on what is true is not the best political strategy, hence why Obama has not endorsed things like gay marriage when anyone with a brain is well aware that he supports it privately (and will support it publicly after being reelected in 2012).

Here is an example of Obama's fine character from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/1 ... 97834.html:


"Eric, don't call my bluff. I'm going to the American people on this," the president said, according to both Cantor and another attendee. "This process is confirming what the American people think is the worst about Washington: that everyone is more interested in posturing, political positioning, and protecting their base, than in resolving real problems."

Democratic officials had a different interpretation. "The meeting ended with Cantor being dressed down while sitting in silence," one official said in an email. "[The president] said Cantor could not have it both ways of insisting on dollar-for-dollar and still not being open to revenues."

"I have reached the point where I say enough," Obama concluded, according to Reuters. "Would Ronald Reagan be sitting here? I've reached my limit. This may bring my presidency down, but I will not yield on this."


Of course, I am well aware that this is just another political strategy by Obama, and he does not think that this will bring his presidency down at all. What you fail to understand, Obama haters, is that in order to get elected president, one by their very definition has already sold out on a number of issues and lied to the American people to get there. The process that puts elected officials in office virtually guarantees that the officials will not be honest with people and try to run the country as best they can. That is what makes Obama so extraordinary - how little he politically panders to people and how pragmatic he is. Compared to other elected officials over the course of American history, Obama is probably the single most erudite, honest person to ever see the white house. None of you care because your heads are up your asses, and as long as he isn't trying to push medicare for all and completely pulling out of the Middle East, he is a traitor to the cause. Well, anyone who expected more from Obama was just fooling themselves. I knew that he would govern from the center, I knew he would cave in occasionally to absurd Republican demands, I knew he would not live up to the far left's unfounded expectations and support things that he didn't even run on to appeal to primary voters, and I still supported him (in fact, his bumper sticker is still on my car. I intend to add a 2012 sticker in the near future). Why? Because I am not a sucker for obvious political hackery. I wanted a thoughtful president who broke down a racial barrier and established a better reputation for the U.S. around the world - and it worked. Global opinion of the U.S. is five times higher now than it was prior to Obama being elected. African American self esteem is at an all time high about their potential to achieve. We have a man in the White House who is arguing against mindless Republican hacks that we need to raise taxes on the wealthy to make society more equitable. Ah, but, who really cares? That isn't important - the events in Washing affect no one. Go do a protest vote and vote third party in 2012 or don't vote at all. After all, voting for the lesser evil is still voting for evil, right? Wrong. Voting for the better of the only two viable candidates is the only moral decision one can make in the voting booth. Any other action is not only stupid, it is morally reprehensible. If Obama loses his far left voters and loses the 2012 election, you royally fucked over our country and deserve a round of applause for turning it into a shit hole along with the right wing lunatics who also chose not to vote for Obama.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#2  Postby quill » Jul 14, 2011 5:20 am

He should not have even given the Republicans this long to twist the story to their advantage. If I were him, the moment Cantor walked out of the negotiations, I would have gone to the American people and told them that our lives were all being put in danger, that the Republicans were threatening to destroy our economy on purpose and that we would not allow ourselves to be victims of extortion in this way. But he hasn't done that. Apparently, we're told that he dressed Cantor down behind closed doors by threatening to do these things. But why couldn't he have done them in the first place? He had the opportunity to chase Cantor and his ilk out of office and cement Democratic government for the next ten years if he had just capitalized on their mistake. He had it handed to him on a silver platter and as usual, he let them off.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#3  Postby rEvolutionist » Jul 14, 2011 5:25 am

:popcorn:

(YES!! Just increased my post count by 1. Woohoo! :insane: )
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#4  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 14, 2011 6:34 am

UM's repetitive holier-than-thou approach ran thin a long time ago. His posts are rapidly arriving at the point of being parodies of themselves.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#5  Postby Scar » Jul 14, 2011 6:42 am

I just farted.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#6  Postby rEvolutionist » Jul 14, 2011 6:47 am

That was actually more intelligent than anything Obama has done. :nod:
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#7  Postby blackarmada » Jul 14, 2011 7:37 am

I can't decide who he's trying to talk to
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#8  Postby rEvolutionist » Jul 14, 2011 10:45 am

UtilityMonster wrote:People on this board have long bemoaned Obama's willingness to compromise. You claim that this is not the president you supported. I hate to break it to you, but it is your fault for expecting a god rather than a human being who is intelligent. People who follow politics closely and understand political strategy like virtually everyone on MSNBC support Obama (even though they occasionally express disappointments here and there, as should be expected with any leader, something many of you fail to recognize) and realize that it is impossible to achieve all desired goals when you have a Republican controlled House. Of course, none of you have the faintest idea of what it takes to actually run for office and win, so you suggest he do things that are politically suicidal but "correct" according to you. If he just defended them to the death, he would get reelected, right? Make the case, Obama! Well, in case you haven't noticed, the American people don't respond well to logic.


And you haven't noticed that Obama doesn't seem to understand public opinion. Polls show overwhelming support for some things that Obama has caved on. And the Repubs didn't always control the house.

None of you care because your heads are up your asses,...


:picard:

and as long as he isn't trying to push medicare for all and completely pulling out of the Middle East, he is a traitor to the cause. Well, anyone who expected more from Obama was just fooling themselves. I knew that he would govern from the center, I knew he would cave in occasionally to absurd Republican demands, I knew he would not live up to the far left's unfounded expectations and support things that he didn't even run on to appeal to primary voters, and I still supported him (in fact, his bumper sticker is still on my car. I intend to add a 2012 sticker in the near future). Why?


Because you are better and smarter than us? Yeah, that must be it.

Because I am not a sucker for obvious political hackery. I wanted a thoughtful president who broke down a racial barrier and established a better reputation for the U.S. around the world - and it worked. Global opinion of the U.S. is five times higher now than it was prior to Obama being elected.


I've got news for you, IT'S STILL SHIT. Being only shit, as opposed to really fucking shit, isn't much to crow about.


African American self esteem is at an all time high about their potential to achieve. We have a man in the White House who is arguing against mindless Republican hacks that we need to raise taxes on the wealthy to make society more equitable.


Really. So why was it he extended the Bush tax cuts? :ask: Pragmatism, I suppose? :roll:

Ah, but, who really cares? That isn't important - the events in Washing affect no one. Go do a protest vote and vote third party in 2012 or don't vote at all. After all, voting for the lesser evil is still voting for evil, right? Wrong. Voting for the better of the only two viable candidates is the only moral decision one can make in the voting booth.


Why is a third candidate necessarily not viable? Is it because you think voting for them will be a wasted vote because most people won't vote for them? If so, that's backward thinking, as you will never get a third viable candidate if people don't start owning their vote and voting for who they truly believe will be the best candidate. As an example from Australia, The Greens have always suffered from the same effect here. Everyone used to consider them a wasted vote. They now have about 12% of the vote and hold the balance of power in the senate and lower house along with a few other indies. Although, our preferential voting system helps in allowing people to vote their true intentional vote, but direct their effective vote to the party that offers the lesser of two evils.

Any other action is not only stupid, it is morally reprehensible.


Possibly. But you'll forever be stuck with two right-wing parties (and both moving further right with time) if you never vote any different. Perhaps you need to suffer a bit in the short term to save your arses from the long term.


If Obama loses his far left voters and loses the 2012 election, you royally fucked over our country and deserve a round of applause for turning it into a shit hole along with the right wing lunatics who also chose not to vote for Obama.


It's already a shithole, mate. There's going to be no easy solutions to getting yourselves out of the shit. But voting in Democrats like Obama isn't going to get you out of the shit. It might prolong your inevitable death as a functioning democracy/country, but voting for Obama is still morally reprehensible. Voting for Obama is voting for torture, rendition, tax cuts for the rich, welfare cuts for the poor, and little to no social services. Sounds pretty morally reprehensible to me.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#9  Postby JoeB » Jul 14, 2011 2:40 pm

quill wrote:He should not have even given the Republicans this long to twist the story to their advantage. If I were him, the moment Cantor walked out of the negotiations, I would have gone to the American people and told them that our lives were all being put in danger, that the Republicans were threatening to destroy our economy on purpose and that we would not allow ourselves to be victims of extortion in this way. But he hasn't done that. Apparently, we're told that he dressed Cantor down behind closed doors by threatening to do these things. But why couldn't he have done them in the first place? He had the opportunity to chase Cantor and his ilk out of office and cement Democratic government for the next ten years if he had just capitalized on their mistake. He had it handed to him on a silver platter and as usual, he let them off.

I agree, it seems to me the republicans are somewhat like a bully and the democrats are treating them with gloves, afraid of getting shouted at.. They should simply put the facts out; the GOP is willing to ruin the country for personal gain. Next year the GOP'll just twist their behaviour in such a way that it makes the democrats look like the guilty party. Sheesh.

Well America, you made up your bed, now you have to sleep in it. :(
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#10  Postby jaydot » Jul 15, 2011 10:20 pm

paragraphs, i yearn for paragraphs.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#11  Postby mrjonno » Jul 15, 2011 10:32 pm

Well not thinking the world was created in 6 days, that the world has serious problems with global warming and that public healthcare for all is a good idea doesnt mean you are clever it just means you arent a fucking moron
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#12  Postby Denny » Jul 16, 2011 4:36 pm

Advocating for civil unions instead of same-sex marriage makes him a bigot in my eyes.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#13  Postby King David » Jul 16, 2011 5:49 pm

How many times must we go over this: It is not his willingness to compromise that is the problem, it is the way that he compromises and his utter lack of negotiating skills. Anyone who has ever haggled knows that if you are buying you start low and if you are selling you start high, then you work towards a happy medium. Same goes for politics. Obama, instead of using this tried and true method of negotiation, starts off with a center-right position, then moves closer and closer to the republican position, ending up giving them 80% of what they want while liberals get next to nothing. The worst part is that he consistently does this even when public opinion is far to the left of his own starting position in the negotiation. He did this with the public option, with the Bush tax cuts, and now he is doing it with the budget negotiations. Over 70% of the public prefers raising taxes on the wealthy to cutting Medicare and Social Security, yet he is still deferring to republican positions and even repeating their talking points for them. It is absolutely absurd.

He apparently has no idea how to wield public opinion. The massive public support for these liberal programs means that Obama can and should be more forceful in publicly defending them and attacking the republicans' plan to dismantle them. He should be saying things like: "Republicans are holding the American economy hostage in order to give tax breaks to the people who ran it into the ground in the first place. They are holding your pensions and healthcare hostage so that the cronies who fill their campaign coffers can buy new yachts. They are engaging in economic terrorism and hostage taking without regard or care for the will and the good of the people." I don't want him to say this just to make me feel better, but because the majority of the public are in favor of the liberal programs and need to have a leader, yes a LEADER, voice their concerns in a forceful way which puts those who would destroy the economy on the spot and on the defensive. Doing so would mean controlling the terms of the debate and mobilizing the will of the populace in his favor. Instead he just passively and nonchalantly lets the repubs spew their talking points and even repeats them. I heard the man say the other day "We need to tighten the belt. Live within our means, like a family does." Right out of the dumb republican quote book. It is an unwarranted legitimization of the thugs' position, which is-tighten your belt America, we're cutting your benefits so us rich white fucks won't have to pay 3% more on our income taxes. What we need is more revenue and less waste. What we need is for the president's talking points and negotiations to match the liberal position, the position that over 70% of the population agrees with.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#14  Postby quill » Jul 16, 2011 6:04 pm

Denny wrote:Advocating for civil unions instead of same-sex marriage makes him a bigot in my eyes.


I don't know if I would go that far, but only because I don't know whether his anti-marriage position derives from a sincere belief or if this is merely another expression of his political cowardice. Although the public now supports SSM by a clear majority, that might not mean a majority of the electoral college. I am certainly insulted, though. Not supporting equal rights for LGBT couples places him among a minority of the people, and a small minority of Democrats.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#15  Postby jaydot » Jul 16, 2011 6:09 pm

paragraphs, i still yearn for paragraphs. it's a bit like being the voice crying in the wilderness, unheeded.

the original content started off very interesting, but i'm fucked if i'm spending my failing eyesight on a great blank wall of text, no matter how well written it might be.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#16  Postby Denny » Jul 16, 2011 7:14 pm

quill wrote:
Denny wrote:Advocating for civil unions instead of same-sex marriage makes him a bigot in my eyes.


I don't know if I would go that far, but only because I don't know whether his anti-marriage position derives from a sincere belief or if this is merely another expression of his political cowardice. Although the public now supports SSM by a clear majority, that might not mean a majority of the electoral college. I am certainly insulted, though. Not supporting equal rights for LGBT couples places him among a minority of the people, and a small minority of Democrats.


Yes, it could be about political cowardice--I don't know and I don't care. Until he promotes fairness and equality for all people, he is a default bigot in my eyes.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#17  Postby UtilityMonster » Jul 16, 2011 10:29 pm

King David wrote:How many times must we go over this: It is not his willingness to compromise that is the problem, it is the way that he compromises and his utter lack of negotiating skills. Anyone who has ever haggled knows that if you are buying you start low and if you are selling you start high, then you work towards a happy medium. Same goes for politics. Obama, instead of using this tried and true method of negotiation, starts off with a center-right position, then moves closer and closer to the republican position, ending up giving them 80% of what they want while liberals get next to nothing. The worst part is that he consistently does this even when public opinion is far to the left of his own starting position in the negotiation. He did this with the public option, with the Bush tax cuts, and now he is doing it with the budget negotiations. Over 70% of the public prefers raising taxes on the wealthy to cutting Medicare and Social Security, yet he is still deferring to republican positions and even repeating their talking points for them. It is absolutely absurd.


He is most certainly not deferring to Republican positions on taxation, so I have no idea why you cited the fact that 70% of Americans prefer to raise taxes on the wealthy as if his position disagrees with that. Also, we couldn't pay off the debt solely by raising taxes on the wealthy. Ending the Bush tax cuts on the top 2% would bring in 700 billion in revenue over the next decade, which would be next to nothing relative to the increasing costs of entitlement programs, with medicare costs spiking. The average American puts one third into medicare as they get out of it. Even Bernie Sanders, perhaps the furthest left congressman, says we need a dollar revenue increase for each dollar in cuts. Any very far left suggestion that we could solve the deficit dealing only in revenue increases is fundamentally flawed.

I agree with you about the way he negotiates, though. I do think he has caved on too much, but I also recognize that I am not in D.C. engaging in negotiations every day. I don't doubt his sincerity about improving the well being of the average citizen, so I suspect the lack of the results is traceable back to Republicans and their political agenda which is solely to end his presidency. I challenge you to provide a better president in the entire history of this country, and I'll provide you five egregious errors they made. My expectations were never high, because all presidents are disappointments. Asking him to be a better president is like asking for a different country - with constituent pressures, corporate influence, lobbying, etc., he is remarkably principled and benevolent. I am comparing him relatively and realistically, and everyone on this board compares him to the ideal. That wouldn't be so bad if they didn't turn around and completely ignore the accomplishments he has made, call him a "bigot," and then say they won't vote for him. Surely you, David, understand that Obama is much better than the alternative. If you hate only having two options (and I do), then advocate proportional representation. But while we have the winner-take-all system, acknowledge the better of the two options and back him. Anything else is a fundamental error in both strategic calculation and ethical reasoning.

King David wrote:
He apparently has no idea how to wield public opinion. The massive public support for these liberal programs means that Obama can and should be more forceful in publicly defending them and attacking the republicans' plan to dismantle them. He should be saying things like: "Republicans are holding the American economy hostage in order to give tax breaks to the people who ran it into the ground in the first place. They are holding your pensions and healthcare hostage so that the cronies who fill their campaign coffers can buy new yachts. They are engaging in economic terrorism and hostage taking without regard or care for the will and the good of the people." I don't want him to say this just to make me feel better, but because the majority of the public are in favor of the liberal programs and need to have a leader, yes a LEADER, voice their concerns in a forceful way which puts those who would destroy the economy on the spot and on the defensive. Doing so would mean controlling the terms of the debate and mobilizing the will of the populace in his favor. Instead he just passively and nonchalantly lets the repubs spew their talking points and even repeats them. I heard the man say the other day "We need to tighten the belt. Live within our means, like a family does." Right out of the dumb republican quote book. It is an unwarranted legitimization of the thugs' position, which is-tighten your belt America, we're cutting your benefits so us rich white fucks won't have to pay 3% more on our income taxes. What we need is more revenue and less waste. What we need is for the president's talking points and negotiations to match the liberal position, the position that over 70% of the population agrees with.


No idea how to wield public opinion? Didn't he, a black man, win North Carolina and Virginia? I think you are, by the way, dramatically overestimating the power of the president to affect public opinion. 4/10 Americans hate him no matter what he does, and go so far to oppose him out of spite. By the way, he is being aggressive on debt negotiations, contrary to your characterization of him, although fortunately for the intelligence of this country he is not using petty rhetorical devices like "economic terrorism," "cronies," and "hostage taking." He is defending letting the Bush tax cuts for the top 2% expire in a calm, reasoned manner, and I am not sure why you are painting his as supporting the tax cuts. Also, as I said earlier, the tax cuts are merely a piece to the puzzle of deficit reduction. Obama actually presented the single most comprehensive debt reduction plan. I fall in the camp that doesn't actually think debt reduction is terribly important, especially considering the fiscal shape this country is in, but when a sizable majority of the American people are also saying that they want debt reduction, and all the House is talking about is debt reduction, Obama could not take a hard lined Krugman-like position arguing for a public works program. It could never pass, and it would simply be a refusal to acknowledge reality to invest time and energy pursuing something that would ultimately be a complete and utter waste of time. No longer can Republicans claim that Obama is unwilling to fight the burgeoning deficit. It is a political strategy that could very well see him reelected in 2012. By the way, citing that American people don't want to see cuts in entitlements should be complemented by data that shows they also want to see the deficit slashed. They just don't understand that one things leads to another.

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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#18  Postby thaesofereode » Jul 16, 2011 11:59 pm

I have a very bad feeling about the current standoff on the debt ceiling. I'm wondering if the Republicans aren't holding out for some major, last-second concessions to keep it all from going over the brink.

Stinks of a bit of blackmail to me.

Besides, I'm sick of politicians whose only concern, it seems, is to get elected and then stay in office --- while at the same time doing as much sabotage as possible to "make the other guy look bad," or increase the "misery index," so as to ensure their own election. All without giving one rat's ass about actually governing or working on all the REAL problems that are out there --- their only concern is getting in power and staying in power, and making the other guy look as bad as possible so that they'll get in power and stay in power.

Has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with solving anything. It's unmitigated BULLSHIT, and they don't even care if they destroy everyone else to do it. They're a shrill, petty, rigid buncha babies treating this nation's business like schoolyard baby games.

RAT FUCKING BASTARDS.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#19  Postby bioeng » Jul 17, 2011 3:47 am

How I wish Al Gore's win in 2000 wasn't stolen. Then we probably wouldn't be in the position we are in now where the massive cumulative fuckups of the Bush Admin transferred to the current administration, and are now being taken advantage of and being made worse by the conservatives in order to get elected.
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Re: Obama is actually intelligent

#20  Postby quill » Jul 17, 2011 4:04 am

UtilityMonster wrote:He is most certainly not deferring to Republican positions on taxation, so I have no idea why you cited the fact that 70% of Americans prefer to raise taxes on the wealthy as if his position disagrees with that.


He started these negotiations by proposing a 3:1 ratio favoring spending cuts over tax increases. He has renegged on his promise to repeal the Bush tax cuts. 42% of the stimulus package eventually passed consisted of new tax cuts. Taxes under Obama are even lower than they were under Bush. Maybe that's why he is accused of deferring to a Republican position on taxation.
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