proudfootz* wrote:AFAICT Nazis these days either deny the Holocaust happened at all or and think it didn't go far enough.

I can't recall ever hearing a Nazi say that Hitler and those guys were wrong about the whole genocide thing.

Pebble wrote:Fair enough - now all you need to do is demonstrate that genocide is an essential part of Nazi beliefs. I would be particularly interested in any evidence to demonstrate that it was at its core different to Fascism which was popular throughout Europe at the same time.

Our strength lies in our quickness and in our brutality; Genghis Khan has sent millions of women and children into death knowingly and with a light heart. History sees in him only the great founder of States. As to what the weak Western European civilisation asserts about me, that is of no account. I have given the command and I shall shoot everyone who utters one word of criticism, for the goal to be obtained in the war is not that of reaching certain lines but of physically demolishing the opponent. And so for the present only in the East I have put my death-head formations' in place with the command relentlessly and without compassion to send into death many women and children of Polish origin and language. Only thus we can gain the living space [lebensraum] that we need. Who after all is today speaking about the destruction of the Armenians?

The_Piper wrote:

proudfootz wrote:I'm glad not everyone is sitting on the fence about whether Nazis should be opposed:

The far right is being rapidly pushed back to the fringes

But whenever these far-right demonstrations pop up in new cities, there’s always hand-wringing around the question of whether people should pay them any attention at all. In the days before the rally, Tina Fey took to Saturday Night Live to tell viewers to leave these rallies alone, saying, “Don’t show up.”

But the anti-racist coalition of socialists and black liberation activists say that showing up is not only necessary, but an opportunity to draw attention to systemic white supremacy, and to get people off the couch not just to shout at neo-Nazis, but get involved in fixing inequality in government.

“These people are the far right, and they absolutely need to be fought,” Husayn Karimi, an organizer with the Party for Socialism and Liberation, said at the counterprotest in Boston. “But we also need to fight for basic rights like health care, and funding for Boston’s public schools.”

“It’s not just about today,” Karimi said. “It’s about the next fight — fighting the actual right.”

https://mic.com/articles/183950/the-far ... .nCz7yYGfn

Just like I predicted ( ), the free speech rally in Boston hardly filled a gazeebo, while there were something like 40,000 counter-protestors.
https://www.vox.com/2017/8/19/16173486/ ... eech-rally

BWE wrote:Well, Jews and commies don't propose genocide normally. That's actually what it means to be a Nazi. This is just false equivalence.

Warren Dew wrote:

BWE wrote:Well, Jews and commies don't propose genocide normally. That's actually what it means to be a Nazi. This is just false equivalence.

Indeed, communists just do it, they don't bother with the "proposing" part first.

BWE wrote:

Warren Dew wrote:

BWE wrote:Well, Jews and commies don't propose genocide normally. That's actually what it means to be a Nazi. This is just false equivalence.

Indeed, communists just do it, they don't bother with the "proposing" part first.

Well, if you are talking about Stalin Mao and Pol Pot. However, the communist (singular) that I know, shares essentially nothing with those leader's goals. This is not the case with Nazis.

Warren Dew wrote:

BWE wrote:

Warren Dew wrote:

BWE wrote:Well, Jews and commies don't propose genocide normally. That's actually what it means to be a Nazi. This is just false equivalence.

Indeed, communists just do it, they don't bother with the "proposing" part first.

Well, if you are talking about Stalin Mao and Pol Pot. However, the communist (singular) that I know, shares essentially nothing with those leader's goals. This is not the case with Nazis.

Is the communist you know in charge of a country? I care about what they actually do once they're in charge, not what they think they'll do before they face the actual issues of governing.

Is the communist you know in charge of a country?

proudfootz wrote:AFAICT Nazis these days either deny the Holocaust happened at all or think it didn't go far enough.

I can't recall ever hearing a Nazi say that Hitler and those guys were wrong about the whole genocide thing.

SkyMutt wrote:

Pebble wrote:Fair enough - now all you need to do is demonstrate that genocide is an essential part of Nazi beliefs. I would be particularly interested in any evidence to demonstrate that it was at its core different to Fascism which was popular throughout Europe at the same time.

Let me introduce you to the Obersalzberg Speech, given by Hitler to Wehrmacht commanders before the invasion of Poland. Perhaps you will be aware that "Lebensraum" was a basic component of Nazi ideology--the Aryan race required more territory for its exclusive use in order to continue to develop. To achieve this "Lebensraum," the plan was that people who inhabited land taken by Nazis would be exterminated, i.e. genocide.

Our strength lies in our quickness and in our brutality; Genghis Khan has sent millions of women and children into death knowingly and with a light heart. History sees in him only the great founder of States. As to what the weak Western European civilisation asserts about me, that is of no account. I have given the command and I shall shoot everyone who utters one word of criticism, for the goal to be obtained in the war is not that of reaching certain lines but of physically demolishing the opponent. And so for the present only in the East I have put my death-head formations' in place with the command relentlessly and without compassion to send into death many women and children of Polish origin and language. Only thus we can gain the living space [lebensraum] that we need. Who after all is today speaking about the destruction of the Armenians?

The use of genocide was a central tenet of Nazism, to be implemented not only to clear Untermenschen from land taken in war, but also to eliminate them from within the Reich (the "Final Solution" laid out at the Wannsee Conference).

Fascist Italy also carried out programs of ethnic cleansing despite Mussolini having a 'weak' position on the question of race before he strongly tied himself to Hitler, but I'm not sure how that could be construed to make Nazism any less genocidal.

Pebble wrote:

proudfootz wrote:AFAICT Nazis these days either deny the Holocaust happened at all or think it didn't go far enough.

I can't recall ever hearing a Nazi say that Hitler and those guys were wrong about the whole genocide thing.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Pebble wrote:So Hitler was a brute - who knew? Believing others are sub-human is never going to end well.

In the 1930's his plans had been for relocation of the Jews, the move toward genocide as a solution occurred over time - Wannasee was in 1942, for example.

The nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated.

BWE wrote:

Pebble wrote:

proudfootz wrote:AFAICT Nazis these days either deny the Holocaust happened at all or think it didn't go far enough.

I can't recall ever hearing a Nazi say that Hitler and those guys were wrong about the whole genocide thing.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Or, Nazis.