Questions to those opposing free trade

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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#21  Postby blackarmada » Sep 24, 2010 5:09 am

Hugin wrote:
My questions to those opposing free trade are:

1. What do you see as wrong in the economic theory about free trade?
2. Why don't you think economists have discovered those errors that you have?


The same reason why many in this forum would be opposed to Communism and Libertarianism, despite the extreme difference in their core ideologies. Not because the end goal is undesirable but the processes leading up to the end goal is just too easily corruptible, abused and taken too much on faith.

Theories are formulated based on predictable variables. Certainly free trade sounds good on paper and there has been notable examples of it benefitting both sides. But at the same time there are many examples of Western countries - the US in particular demanding free trade agreements from a country but not offering anything in return, opening the floodgates for their capital to come in and buy up important infrastructure to screw the local population

Oh they know the possible gaps in their theories that free trade benefits everyone, they just don't think it to be particularly important when it's just some indigenious locals getting screwed in the exchange.
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#22  Postby Sylvie » Sep 24, 2010 5:29 am

Just bookmarking
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#23  Postby Globe » Sep 24, 2010 5:31 am

There is no such thing as "Free Trade".
Completely free trade is a nice banner for the liberals (Right-wingers to you non-Europeans) to wave around and try to get votes on, but it's basically an anarchistic idea that can only be realised if there is no state.
Because any state needs to be funded, and to fund it the state will have to tax both companies (there goes free trade) and citizens working in the companies.
The very few states in the world, such as Monaco and Andorra, that doesn't tax it's citizens and private companies, funds themselves by state-owned, profit yielding activities (there goes free trade)
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#24  Postby Byron » Sep 24, 2010 5:33 am

Strontium Dog wrote:Free trade eradicates those disparities. That "unfair advantage" a country has in the labour market disappears as their economy develops and catches up to everyone else. In less than half a century, South Korea went from third world to first world and now it's a G20 economy where workers enjoy the kind of legal protections that we do. And all because of free trade. Just compare it to its neighbour to the north, where trade is about as unfree as you can get, and you'll realise opposition to free trade isn't just nonsensical - it's criminal.

Free trade does nothing to prevent outsourcing of labour. If it's cheaper to make a product in China than in England, it'll like as not get made in China. China is simply undercutting the British market, and we can't compete on equal terms because we have to pay our workers over £5 ($8-ish) an hour. (And a good thing to.) Trade isn't laissez faire.

The question of whether free trade brings a nation prosperity is separate. I will say, though, that using the world's most oppressive closed market, inside the world's most isolated ghetto state, isn't the most convincing example. :D
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#25  Postby gleniedee » Sep 24, 2010 5:58 am

IF the US had the the free trade the neo con Libertarians are always whining about,during the recent economic debacle,the banks would have simply been allowed to fail.The government would not have immediately turned to basic Keynesian economics.

There would have been a world depression. Instead,we've had the relatively mild recession which skipped Australia entirely due to a strongly regulated banking sector.
.
The US economy has never been about free trade,it is innately protectionist and always has been.By
"free trade" the US means 'open markets' for THEIR goods,not all goods


There is no such thing as free trade in the literal meaning of the term of which I'm aware.
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#26  Postby Hugin » Sep 24, 2010 6:42 am

Globe wrote:There is no such thing as "Free Trade".
Completely free trade is a nice banner for the liberals (Right-wingers to you non-Europeans) to wave around and try to get votes on, but it's basically an anarchistic idea that can only be realised if there is no state.
Because any state needs to be funded, and to fund it the state will have to tax both companies (there goes free trade) and citizens working in the companies.
The very few states in the world, such as Monaco and Andorra, that doesn't tax it's citizens and private companies, funds themselves by state-owned, profit yielding activities (there goes free trade)


It helps not being ignorant about what you're talking about.
"If there were an Economist's Creed, it would surely contain the affirmations 'I understand the Principle of Comparative Advantage' and 'I advocate Free Trade'." - Paul Krugman
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#27  Postby Hugin » Sep 24, 2010 6:44 am

gleniedee wrote:IF the US had the the free trade the neo con Libertarians are always whining about,during the recent economic debacle,the banks would have simply been allowed to fail.The government would not have immediately turned to basic Keynesian economics.


:picard:

Oh yeah, Paul Krugman is such a libertarian!

gleniedee wrote:There is no such thing as free trade in the literal meaning of the term of which I'm aware.


Ever heard of the EU or NAFTA?
"If there were an Economist's Creed, it would surely contain the affirmations 'I understand the Principle of Comparative Advantage' and 'I advocate Free Trade'." - Paul Krugman
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#28  Postby Hugin » Sep 24, 2010 6:48 am

Byron wrote:
chairman bill wrote:My preference is for Fair Trade. There is no such thing as a free market, and no free trade.

The problem with the common understanding of free trade is disparity between difference sources of labour. Ie, labour in a country with a minimum wage is more expensive than that in a country with none. The answer isn't, as some libertarians say, to abolished minimum wages and let the market set its own rate, but to set tariffs and other protectionist measures up against countries with an unfair advantage, To allow countries with no worker protection to compete on equal terms is de facto unfree trade.

I admit that capitalism is the best economic system yet devised, but I don't go in for market worship. That way lies the Victorian industrialists & MPs who argued that the most rudimentary worker protection was a dastardly infringement on free trade.


Yeah ok, but how do you explain that the vast majority of economists have a different view from you?
"If there were an Economist's Creed, it would surely contain the affirmations 'I understand the Principle of Comparative Advantage' and 'I advocate Free Trade'." - Paul Krugman
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#29  Postby Globe » Sep 24, 2010 6:52 am

Hugin wrote:
Globe wrote:There is no such thing as "Free Trade".
Completely free trade is a nice banner for the liberals (Right-wingers to you non-Europeans) to wave around and try to get votes on, but it's basically an anarchistic idea that can only be realised if there is no state.
Because any state needs to be funded, and to fund it the state will have to tax both companies (there goes free trade) and citizens working in the companies.
The very few states in the world, such as Monaco and Andorra, that doesn't tax it's citizens and private companies, funds themselves by state-owned, profit yielding activities (there goes free trade)


It helps not being ignorant about what you're talking about.

Disprove it.
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#30  Postby Byron » Sep 24, 2010 6:57 am

Hugin wrote:Yeah ok, but how do you explain that the vast majority of economists have a different view from you?

Some wag's been lacing the pages of the Financial Times with acid? (Always knew that paper had a dubious hue.)
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#31  Postby Hugin » Sep 24, 2010 7:02 am

Globe wrote:
Hugin wrote:
Globe wrote:There is no such thing as "Free Trade".
Completely free trade is a nice banner for the liberals (Right-wingers to you non-Europeans) to wave around and try to get votes on, but it's basically an anarchistic idea that can only be realised if there is no state.
Because any state needs to be funded, and to fund it the state will have to tax both companies (there goes free trade) and citizens working in the companies.
The very few states in the world, such as Monaco and Andorra, that doesn't tax it's citizens and private companies, funds themselves by state-owned, profit yielding activities (there goes free trade)


It helps not being ignorant about what you're talking about.

Disprove it.


What am I to disprove? You don't even know what free trade is!
"If there were an Economist's Creed, it would surely contain the affirmations 'I understand the Principle of Comparative Advantage' and 'I advocate Free Trade'." - Paul Krugman
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#32  Postby Hugin » Sep 24, 2010 7:02 am

Byron wrote:
Hugin wrote:Yeah ok, but how do you explain that the vast majority of economists have a different view from you?

Some wag's been lacing the pages of the Financial Times with acid? (Always knew that paper had a dubious hue.)


Non sequitor.
"If there were an Economist's Creed, it would surely contain the affirmations 'I understand the Principle of Comparative Advantage' and 'I advocate Free Trade'." - Paul Krugman
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#33  Postby Byron » Sep 24, 2010 7:04 am

Hugin wrote:Non sequitor.

Nonconsecutive. :smoke:
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#34  Postby Hugin » Sep 24, 2010 7:05 am

Byron wrote:
Hugin wrote:Non sequitor.

Nonconsecutive. :smoke:


Are you going to explain where they're wrong and you're right, or not?
"If there were an Economist's Creed, it would surely contain the affirmations 'I understand the Principle of Comparative Advantage' and 'I advocate Free Trade'." - Paul Krugman
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#35  Postby Globe » Sep 24, 2010 7:06 am

Hugin wrote:
Globe wrote:
Hugin wrote:

It helps not being ignorant about what you're talking about.

Disprove it.


What am I to disprove? You don't even know what free trade is!

If you are going to call someone ignorant you will have to prove WHY they are ignorant. Not just sling it out there. That is personal attack.

Prove to me that Free Trade exist.
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#36  Postby Hugin » Sep 24, 2010 7:07 am

Globe wrote:
Hugin wrote:
Globe wrote:
Disprove it.


What am I to disprove? You don't even know what free trade is!

If you are going to call someone ignorant you will have to prove WHY they are ignorant. Not just sling it out there. That is personal attack.

Prove to me that Free Trade exist.


:sigh:

The EU. EFTA. NAFTA. Trade between Copenhagen and Århus.
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#37  Postby Globe » Sep 24, 2010 7:12 am

Hugin wrote:
Globe wrote:
Hugin wrote:

What am I to disprove? You don't even know what free trade is!

If you are going to call someone ignorant you will have to prove WHY they are ignorant. Not just sling it out there. That is personal attack.

Prove to me that Free Trade exist.


:sigh:

The EU. EFTA. NAFTA. Trade between Copenhagen and Århus.

Taxed. Both within each country's borders, by exporting, by importing. No two companies are taxed the same within a country, no two items of import are taxed the same, imports from outside those areas are either taxed higher on import, or the countries of origin are subject to trade agreements. Subsidies to banks, struggling industries, subsidies from EU......

Oh look..... Free Trade just flew out the window.
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#38  Postby Hugin » Sep 24, 2010 7:16 am

Globe wrote:
Hugin wrote:
Globe wrote:
If you are going to call someone ignorant you will have to prove WHY they are ignorant. Not just sling it out there. That is personal attack.

Prove to me that Free Trade exist.


:sigh:

The EU. EFTA. NAFTA. Trade between Copenhagen and Århus.

Taxed. Both within each country's borders, by exporting, by importing. No two companies are taxed the same within a country, no two items of import are taxed the same, imports from outside those areas are either taxed higher on import, or the countries of origin are subject to trade agreements. Subsidies to banks, struggling industries, subsidies from EU......

Oh look..... Free Trade just flew out the window.


As I said, you don't know what free trade is. Stop acting as if you do.

Free trade is when goods can flow freely across borders without the government discriminating against them. Like they can within the EU.
"If there were an Economist's Creed, it would surely contain the affirmations 'I understand the Principle of Comparative Advantage' and 'I advocate Free Trade'." - Paul Krugman
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#39  Postby Globe » Sep 24, 2010 7:51 am

Hugin wrote:
Globe wrote:
Hugin wrote:

:sigh:

The EU. EFTA. NAFTA. Trade between Copenhagen and Århus.

Taxed. Both within each country's borders, by exporting, by importing. No two companies are taxed the same within a country, no two items of import are taxed the same, imports from outside those areas are either taxed higher on import, or the countries of origin are subject to trade agreements. Subsidies to banks, struggling industries, subsidies from EU......

Oh look..... Free Trade just flew out the window.


As I said, you don't know what free trade is. Stop acting as if you do.

Free trade is when goods can flow freely across borders without the government discriminating against them. Like they can within the EU.

But they can't. :doh:

The Danish government subsidizes several industries in Denmark. Free Trade out the window, as they create discrimination against non-Danish companies in that industry.
Sweden does the same. As does Germany and every other country within the EU. And even EU create unfair competition within the EU area by subsidizing some companies in one part of the EU, while not subsidizing companies within the same kind of industry in another part of EU.

YOU are the one not knowing what you are talking about.
Simply because a term has been coined, doesn't mean it's practised.
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Re: Questions to those opposing free trade

#40  Postby Globe » Sep 24, 2010 7:52 am

So now I presented you with the fact that Free Trade only exist in name for several reasons.
First taxes and tolls, then subsidizing.

Prove me wrong. :coffee:
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