Strontium Dog wrote:

Paul G wrote:No, I'll talk to myself then.

Are these the question you want answering?

Is free trade really achievable? If it is, what if the outcome is worse than if trade had taken a different form?

My answers would be "yes" and "it won't be".

Festeringbob wrote:... full blown free trade alienates voters

To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the dealers ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it.
Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations

Suppose there was "free trade" within Europe. How does this work out for countries outside of the EU? Are they at a disadvantage because of a government agreement within the EU?

Hugin wrote:
1. What do you see as wrong in the economic theory about free trade?

2. Why don't you think economists have discovered those errors that you have?

Strontium Dog wrote:

Globe wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:I think the error is in seeing "free trade" as some kind of binary thing. Okay, Denmark's subsidies might mean that trade isn't 100% free, but there is mostly free trade between Denmark and its EU colleagues.

Right..... that's why we don't import the CHEAPER German milk and dairy products in Denmark.

Er, yes you do

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/Proc ... lk-imports

Arla under pressure from cheap German milk imports
05-Jul-2004

From this month, German milk will be available at Danish retailer Dansk Supermarked's stores, a move that could affect milk prices and production across Europe.

According to Danish press reports, the two Danish multiples owned by the Dansk Supermarked Group, Føtex and Bilka, began to sell cheap German milk on Friday. Sold under Dansk Supermarked's own brand "Engholm", the milk will be clearly marked "Produced in Germany."

chairman bill wrote:

Festeringbob wrote:... full blown free trade alienates voters

Absolute free trade is not in the interests of voters either (my bolding of text)

To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the dealers ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it.
Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations

... the logical conclusion for the modem theory of trade and welfare, once political economy costs are taken into account is that, as the classical liberals maintained, the case for free trade and laissez-faire hang together.

the case for free trade was developed simultaneously with the case for laissez-faire. Indeed, the case for free trade was really a special case of the argument for laissez-faire (Corden, 1997)

Paul G wrote:

Suppose there was "free trade" within Europe. How does this work out for countries outside of the EU? Are they at a disadvantage because of a government agreement within the EU?

Globe wrote:

Hugin wrote:

Globe wrote:
Taxed. Both within each country's borders, by exporting, by importing. No two companies are taxed the same within a country, no two items of import are taxed the same, imports from outside those areas are either taxed higher on import, or the countries of origin are subject to trade agreements. Subsidies to banks, struggling industries, subsidies from EU......

Oh look..... Free Trade just flew out the window.

As I said, you don't know what free trade is. Stop acting as if you do.

Free trade is when goods can flow freely across borders without the government discriminating against them. Like they can within the EU.

But they can't.

The Danish government subsidizes several industries in Denmark. Free Trade out the window, as they create discrimination against non-Danish companies in that industry.
Sweden does the same. As does Germany and every other country within the EU. And even EU create unfair competition within the EU area by subsidizing some companies in one part of the EU, while not subsidizing companies within the same kind of industry in another part of EU.

YOU are the one not knowing what you are talking about.
Simply because a term has been coined, doesn't mean it's practised.

Hugin wrote:... Nonsense. If a product from Sweden can be sold in Denmark without the Danish government putting an extra tax on it because it's non-Danish (that's what we call tariffs), and if the Danish government puts no limit on the amount of Swedish products allowed to be sold in Denmark (that's what we call quotas), there's free trade ...

maik wrote:It is not even the job of the economist to discover the errors.
The economist is not obliged or motivated in any way to think "outside the box"..maybe a philosopher, maybe a political scientist, maybe an economist on a philosophical mood or a charismatic analyser would think like that.. The average economist though has the theory already fixed: Free Trade. His job, at least the way it is now, is not to question the theory but to analyse the circumstances and the alternatives within it. Have you ever heard of a "communist economist" existing? Someone that would point out the dead- ends of the system and actually propose that other systems would do better? There are many that question the system but i doubt that they belong to the community of the economists and, even if they define themselves as "economists" i also doubt that the community itself would accept them. Even if there is a "communist" or an "anarchist" economist, he is certanly not employed among us..

Paul G wrote:

Paul G wrote:

Suppose there was "free trade" within Europe. How does this work out for countries outside of the EU? Are they at a disadvantage because of a government agreement within the EU?

FFS.

chairman bill wrote:I think the key issue is, what is the purpose of trade? What does society want from it, where this might differ from what certain individuals want, how does society approach the issue of trade & regulate it, if necessary?

mrjonno wrote:Bare in mind the difference between the US and UK working conditions are as great as the difference between the UK and China, ie the US has something approaching 3rd world working condtions so any trade with the US is hardly 'free'

US has something approaching 3rd world working condtions

chairman bill wrote:

Hugin wrote:... Nonsense. If a product from Sweden can be sold in Denmark without the Danish government putting an extra tax on it because it's non-Danish (that's what we call tariffs), and if the Danish government puts no limit on the amount of Swedish products allowed to be sold in Denmark (that's what we call quotas), there's free trade ...

But would it be free trade is Sweden offered subsidies to its producers, whilst Denmark didn't?

Strontium Dog wrote:Goddamn, I hope this is a wind-up.

To narrow competition is NOT free trade. Free trade is NOT a total absence of regulation. Free trade is NOT laissez-faire.

This shit ain't hard.