There's a dirty secret to American democracy: You don't choose your politicians; your politicians choose you. "Rigged," Fusion’s latest Naked Truth investigative documentary, lays out exactly how well-connected pols water down the votes of minorities, young people, and progressives for their own personal benefit. But the story goes much deeper. Here, you can explore:

This is a wide ranging effort ...take time to read the multiple in depth articles if this is of interest to you

http://interactive.fusion.net/how-to-ri ... index.html

Yeah, well, Democracy has ALWAYS been about manipulating voters. Unless they can show that actual votes are obstructed or counted twice or something, it's just the nature of the construct.

And the thing is, due to the nature of human beings, no matter what democratic structure you come up with, it will always evolve into this kind of mess.

Not to mention that, from the beginning, the US hasn't been a democracy - it has always been, and continues to be, a representative Republic.

Yup - playing with the franchise has been a time "honoured" ? .....tradition for the entrenched interests and a rallying point for those on the fringes.

Given the rather smooth elections elsewhere in the first world ....the contrast with the US is rather marked given what changes for the world and the US citizens hinge on the outcome.

I thought the range of articles worth reading.

What gives you the impression that US elections aren't smooth?

Surely you jest ...the debacle in Florida is only one example.

YOU HAVE NO INDEPENDENT NATIONAL ELECTION BODY .....= third world

Did you actually read the long articles in the OP or just trying to defend the indefensible.?

The undeniable problems with things like gerrymandering (by both sides) and voter suppression (by the Republicans) don't mean that our election processes aren't smooth.

Weaver wrote:Not to mention that, from the beginning, the US hasn't been a democracy - it has always been, and continues to be, a representative Republic.

Those are not mutually exclusive.
Most countries in Europe are constitutional, representative democracies. Some of those are republics, others monarchies where the monarchies are figureheads without executive powers.

We are a democratic Republic. We are NOT a Democracy - we do not vote directly on matters above the local level.

Weaver wrote:What gives you the impression that US elections aren't smooth?

Listening to the GOP maybe?

The irony is that right now in the US the biggest threat of voter disenfranchisment is coming from those who are pedalling the idea of massive voter fraud to implement stricter voting laws.

It's unfortunate that many people who otherwise would identify such "fraud" as bullshit are willing to go along with it so long as it supports their particular agenda at the moment.

Democracy main problem isn't the politicians but a poorly informed, poorly educated electorate

mrjonno wrote:Democracy main problem isn't the politicians but a poorly informed, poorly educated electorate

and in the US a highly divisive one.

Weaver wrote:We are a democratic Republic. We are NOT a Democracy - we do not vote directly on matters above the local level.

Virtually no country in the world does.
Democracy =/= absolute democracy Doc.
The US isn't an absolute democracy, just like no country in the EU is, but they're all representative democracies.
Your government is elected by the people, albeit indirectly in some cases.
Your laws are created by a representative body, elected by the public.
The U.S. is a democracy. That doesn't exclude it from being a republic, but neither does being a republic exclude a country from being a democracy.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/13/is-the-united-states-of-america-a-republic-or-a-democracy/?utm_term=.5cc35847dc3b
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Republic#Republics_and_democracies

I think the American use of the word republic isn't the one commonly used outside the US in day to day language. It's not wrong but its an American usage that normally goes on about rights and other such fluffy things . In most countries is just a case of whether you have a inherited head of state. To me whether you are republic or not has nothing to do with how people are treated with some quite pleasant countries are republics (France, US) as well as some horrible ones (Syria, North Korea)

The first article lists several issues that are no longer issues. In particular, Poll Tax, Literacy Requirements, and Property Requirements. None have been used in the U.S. since the 60s. Packing. bleaching, cracking, minority/majority districts, and hijacking are simply restatements of or particular instances of gerrymandering which is also listed as a separate voter repression technique. Voting on Tuesdays is no longer an issue as all states have some sort of early voting (though some require a reason for early voting) and/or absentee ballots. This is not an issue in Federal elections because ALL federal elections allow absentee voting. Only three states permanently restrict felons from voting, in all others felons are either allowed to vote immediately after their sentences are served or there is a process by which their rights are restored. So, out of the 12 suppression techniques all that have any validity are gerrymandering, 3 states in which felons are not allowed to vote and voter ID laws Hardly the massive voter suppression machine that the scare headline implies.

Gerrymandering is done by all sides in the political process, and can't be pinned just on the GOP. As for voter ID laws, I fully support them. If you can't prove you're eligible to vote then you shouldn't be voting. Hell, you can't pick up mail at the post office without an ID. Baring felons from voting IS an issue, in fact permanently restricting ANY rights of felons after serving their sentence needs to end.

Do any other countries bar people from voting after completing their sentence?, some countries don't even bar you while you do your sentence.

Surely once you have done your time (including probation) you are a freeman

What purpose do voter id laws serve, other than arbitrarily setting a bar for potential voters to clear?

If somebody is really interested in fraud getting a fake id is nothing. It's probably easier than getting a real one and since election fraud is a much more serious crime than producing a fake id the only people discouraged by these laws are legitamite voters.

Isn't a fake id possible conspiracy to commit fraud depending on the circumstances.

Nothing wrong in principle with ID to use public services but it needs to be extremely easy to obtain (and free)
More pissed of that I need to spend £80 ~ $100 to get a passport. I need this to even leave the UK

purplerat wrote:What purpose do voter id laws serve, other than arbitrarily setting a bar for potential voters to clear?

If somebody is really interested in fraud getting a fake id is nothing. It's probably easier than getting a real one and since election fraud is a much more serious crime than producing a fake id the only people discouraged by these laws are legitamite voters.

It's also been demonstrated, repeatedly, that there hardly is any voter ID fraud. That laws that, supposedly, combat it, aren't worth the cost and effort.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnwasik/2012/11/06/voter-fraud-a-massive-anti-democratic-deception/#270608c1d564
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/10/29/the-voter-fraud-myth

ID cards could be used for a lot things, you shouldn't have to carry one but its not unreasonable to request it for accessing public services and voting