Russian and US ambitions and motivations

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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#281  Postby Mike_L » Jul 30, 2019 5:40 pm

My new strategy is to read only the words that make sense...

Spearthrower wrote:
newolder wrote:
If "nothing has changed" you'll be able to quote where Putin repeated this claim in 2019. :popcorn: :coffee:


Of course, Mike intends to imply that 'nothing has changed' by claiming both that the incident in question eight years ago, and recent protests are all the fault of the U.S. which is exactly how Mike's borrowed narrative functions.

It couldn't possibly be Russians, sick of living under a repressive regime, aspiring for representation and political progress... it must be the long, shadowy hand of
the Great Satan interfering with the peaceable, united Russian populace all living in sublime permanent bliss under the Dear Leader.


newolder wrote:Your whining that "nothing has changed" is utterly false, only partly because you've outed yourself as a troll in recent times. :nono:


Did you enjoy where Mick distorted my response to his repeated self declaration of trolling to be some rhetorical strategy I employ through nefariously writing lots of words to wear everyone down? I did! :lol:

My guess is that's all the response I'm likely to get to the posts from the various credible sources I cited compiling the evidence of RT's Kremlin designed propaganda methodology. There's too many words! I've seen some laughable appeals to style over the years as an evasion, but that one is quite special.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#282  Postby newolder » Jul 30, 2019 5:47 pm

Mike_L wrote:My new strategy is to read only the words that make sense come out from under my bridge occasionally in order to troll the forum.

FIFY.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#283  Postby tuco » Jul 30, 2019 5:56 pm

Just a side note, I do not think Mike_L is trolling which is by my definition: trying to provoke an emotional reaction. Once I was harsh to him when taking his words literally and it was a mistake I reckoned later. He does have an unique style and unpopular controversial fringe opinions but I do not believe that he is trying to yank other people chain in order to amuse himself. He is often on defense, against the majority, so give him some slack?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#284  Postby aban57 » Jul 30, 2019 6:03 pm

tuco wrote:Just a side note, I do not think Mike_L is trolling which is by my definition: trying to provoke an emotional reaction. Once I was harsh to him when taking his words literally and it was a mistake I reckoned later. He does have an unique style and unpopular controversial fringe opinions but I do not believe that he is trying to yank other people chain in order to amuse himself. He is often on defense, against the majority, so give him some slack?


That's what trolls do : repeat "unpopular controversial fringe opinions", otherwise known as "bullshit", and keep doing it despite being corrected. That's one way among several to provoke inflammatory reactions.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#285  Postby tuco » Jul 30, 2019 6:14 pm

No that is how you define trolls, and it is in my opinion not only unfair and unjust but also idiotic. People with fringe opinions exist and they have every right to voice them. Labeling them as trolls, and yes it happened here a lot in past, is just .. as I said. Such people do nothing wrong but voice their opinions. That some people get worked out by such opinions? Fuck them, they have no right to be offended. However, people who intentionally disturb debate, intentionally yank other people chain, in order to amuse themselves or hurt others, are just .. bad .. people and while I would not banish them myself I would not defend them either. Punishing someone for weird opinions is fucked up, it's communist.
Last edited by tuco on Jul 30, 2019 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#286  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 30, 2019 6:16 pm

Mike_L wrote:My new strategy is to read only the words that make sense...



Do you mean 'Kremlin approved'?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#287  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 30, 2019 6:18 pm

tuco wrote:Just a side note, I do not think Mike_L is trolling which is by my definition: trying to provoke an emotional reaction. Once I was harsh to him when taking his words literally and it was a mistake I reckoned later. He does have an unique style and unpopular controversial fringe opinions but I do not believe that he is trying to yank other people chain in order to amuse himself. He is often on defense, against the majority, so give him some slack?




No one else had called Mike a troll.

Mike said 3 times that he was trolling.

He has even taunted that we're 'feeding the troll'.

He appears to be enjoying himself, which is nice.

Incidentally, for the record, I don't consider Mike a troll. He is trolling a bit here, but it's only because he's got the hump that his conspiracy theory obsession isn't taken seriously, and that every time he posts some RT propaganda, it gets picked to pieces and basically laughed at whereas he conceives of it as being legitimate. It's the classic transferal where criticism of ideas is taken as a personal insult. The fact that no one is taking seriously something that he takes very seriously is frustrating for him, so he's playing about. I still hope that he's going to get a grip here, realize that at least some of the people here who he'd formerly respected and who respected him perhaps have a point and then come back to his conspiracy theory stuff with a fresh, more skeptical perspective.

I've seen it happen, and I've even had it happen to me many years ago where dissenting voices can break the spell. I think Mike's a decent enough chap that I genuinely hope this happens. Until then, though, I am going to do what I do even if he finds it annoying - no, especially if he finds it annoying.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#288  Postby tuco » Jul 30, 2019 6:31 pm

/shrugs

Some people just don't get along, I accept it, do you? It does not mean they need to be enemies but they will never be friends.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#289  Postby felltoearth » Jul 30, 2019 6:59 pm

tuco wrote:/shrugs

Some people just don't get along, I accept it, do you? It does not mean they need to be enemies but they will never be friends.

Why do you assume Spearthrower considers Mike an "enemy."
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#290  Postby tuco » Jul 30, 2019 7:04 pm

I do not. I can't talk to Spearthrower directly because he is on my list for another few months, need to check how many, probably till X-mas. You sensed the enemy part. How about sensing not getting along part? What point there is in exchanges between people who do not get along?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#291  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 30, 2019 7:11 pm

felltoearth wrote:
tuco wrote:/shrugs

Some people just don't get along, I accept it, do you? It does not mean they need to be enemies but they will never be friends.


Why do you assume Spearthrower considers Mike an "enemy."


For clarity, I absolutely do not. In fact, I don't consider anyone my enemy. In balance, I don't consider many people friends, either, but while there are some people on this forum I have great respect and appreciation for, there are also those for whom I have none, or at least very little. Mike isn't the latter as I've told him clearly many times, although I have to admit that respect has taken a bit of a battering recently, I still think he's a fundamentally decent chap, with an ironic sense of humor I find appealing, who just happens to have fallen down a rabbit hole into Wonderland.

It can happen to the best of us - one of my oldest friends got into Astrology in a seriously obsessive way and began forcing it into every conversation, basically using it as a control drama to boost his own standing even though many of his oldest friends thought it was batty, but he persisted for many years really testing the strength of those friendships (and losing many in the process) until one day - through a frank conversation - he suddenly realized that it was bunk and dropped it like a used tissue. Honestly, that act resulted in substantial admiration on my part as I knew how much he had invested in it emotionally and financially over the years. It's hard to get a perspective on things you believe, and the reasons why you believe them. It takes either great fortitude and self-honesty, or special circumstances to help nudge in the right direction.

I hope one day Mike will say, you know what? This is all nonsensical, and I don't really know why I thought this was a good idea, then move on and grow from it. Willhud is a stellar example of this, and it's why I have a lot of respect and empathy for the guy.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#292  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 30, 2019 7:11 pm

tuco wrote:I do not. I can't talk to Spearthrower directly because he is on my list for another few months, need to check how many, probably till X-mas. You sensed the enemy part. How about sensing not getting along part? What point there is in exchanges between people who do not get along?


Put me on your list forever, tuco. I have no interest in you or anything you ever have to say.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#293  Postby tuco » Jul 30, 2019 7:13 pm

Sure, I respect that.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#294  Postby Mike_L » Jul 30, 2019 7:23 pm

tuco wrote:Just a side note, I do not think Mike_L is trolling which is by my definition: trying to provoke an emotional reaction. Once I was harsh to him when taking his words literally and it was a mistake I reckoned later. He does have an unique style and unpopular controversial fringe opinions but I do not believe that he is trying to yank other people chain in order to amuse himself. He is often on defense, against the majority, so give him some slack?

Thanks, tuco. I appreciate your sincerity. I've read many of your posts over the years, and always found you to be balanced and fair. :thumbup:

tuco wrote:No that is how you define trolls, and it is in my opinion not only unfair and unjust but also idiotic. People with fringe opinions exist and they have every right to voice them. Labeling them as trolls, and yes it happened here a lot in past, is just .. as I said. Such people do nothing wrong but voice their opinions. That some people get worked out by such opinions? Fuck them, they have no right to be offended. However, people who intentionally disturb debate, intentionally yank other people chain, in order to amuse themselves or hurt others, are just .. bad .. people and while I would not banish them myself I would not defend them either. Punishing someone for weird opinions is fucked up, it's communist.

Yes. :nod:
True trolling is posting against one's own beliefs, doing so just for the giggles.
In an odd way, you and Spearthrower are both right...

Spearthrower wrote:Incidentally, for the record, I don't consider Mike a troll. He is trolling a bit here...

My style might be trollish, but I'm not posting contrary to my position.
Whether my trolling is style or substance (and whether or not that distinction even matters), I'm not sure myself.

FWIW, I do honestly regret that I often end up pissing off people here whom I don't really dislike.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#295  Postby tuco » Jul 30, 2019 7:39 pm

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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#296  Postby aban57 » Jul 30, 2019 8:37 pm

tuco wrote:No that is how you define trolls, and it is in my opinion not only unfair and unjust but also idiotic. People with fringe opinions exist and they have every right to voice them. Labeling them as trolls, and yes it happened here a lot in past, is just .. as I said. Such people do nothing wrong but voice their opinions. That some people get worked out by such opinions? Fuck them, they have no right to be offended. However, people who intentionally disturb debate, intentionally yank other people chain, in order to amuse themselves or hurt others, are just .. bad .. people and while I would not banish them myself I would not defend them either. Punishing someone for weird opinions is fucked up, it's communist.


Well you're right, and that the basic of Poe's law. So how do you tell the difference between someone who spreads bullshit for fun, and someone who actualy believes it ? I'd say (and could be wrong here) it's the intent. So when someone says he's trolling, it's the manifestation of malicious intent, even if it doesn't concern all his posts.
I have a hard time believing that Mike_L actually believes everything he says. And by admitting himself he's trolling, he's only confirming that.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#297  Postby tuco » Jul 30, 2019 8:55 pm

Gut feeling, belief. The intent is impossible to prove. What I said is based on my interaction with him. I could be wrong. Him saying he was trolling .. I am not sure what he meant by it but my evaluation is based on his record here. No matter how weird, he seems to be consistent and that leads me to believe he's honest. Not gonna judge him on an isolated saying under specific circumstances. I am not saying I am right, I was asking to cut him some slack (give him a break .. is it the same?). He is not a person who wants to cause damage to this community or?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#298  Postby aban57 » Jul 30, 2019 9:31 pm

tuco wrote:Gut feeling, belief. The intent is impossible to prove.


Unless it's confessed.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#299  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 30, 2019 9:39 pm

Mike_L wrote:My style might be trollish, but I'm not posting contrary to my position.


I obviously understand that it is what you believe, or else I would hardly bother responding if you were just doing it ironically. If you recall, the first time you started talking about RT, I asked you straight up if you were pulling my leg and having a bit of an in-joke laugh that I'd missed out on - it's quite literally like you'd unironically cited InfoWars in my book. I was suitably surprised to find out you were being serious for the reasons I've made clear.

To me, trolling isn't about what the position is, it's purely intention. If the intention is to piss people off - a troll can post contrary to their position or wholly aligned with it, it's not the content so much as the desired outcome. If I went to a Christian website to tell them all there's no such thing as God and that it's a feeble children's tale, that'd be trolling (and incidentally not something I've ever done) regardless of the fact that I believe the Christian God is in fact a feeble children's tale. It might not be particularly pernicious trolling - for examples of truly demented trolling we had the numerous puppets of Atheistoclast; while he truly believed in all the bollocks he wrote, the fact he invested so much energy to seek out people he hates on ideological grounds just to berate them makes him an object example of a pernicious troll - someone who gets kicks out of stirring shit and attempting to cause misery. Brainman is another who went way above and beyond to express his hatred of people here.


Mike_L wrote:Whether my trolling is style or substance (and whether or not that distinction even matters), I'm not sure myself.


Some of it has been, but the times you actively tried trolling was rather ineffective from my perspective. I personally find your serial distraction tu quoques to be more of a concern as they ensure that substantive points are always deflected, and responding to them all takes time and effort away from the prior point that was sufficiently discomforting to instigate the deflection.


Mike_L wrote:FWIW, I do honestly regret that I often end up pissing off people here whom I don't really dislike.


Don't worry about pissing me off - you'd have to try a damn sight harder, and I expect you'd become uncomfortable far more quickly by doing it than I would receiving it. Again, straight up, I tend to welcome obvious trolling when there's an actual point of discussion because those with the ability to discern argumentation are aware that it's a strategy to evade substance - I'll more than happily repeat it, underscore it, highlight it, and refer back to it whenever necessary to undermine any thrusts that try to reverse the contention and portray the conversation as serious.

As an example of that, you can watch JJ's thread - whenever he whines about how awful the atheists are to him, I immediately refer back to his post where he likened everyone to rabid dogs rending each other in fury because of him. The point is to use the troll's trolling as ammunition undermining their credibility. It works for those who are discerning, and the members here who can't spot it generally, sorry to be so arrogant, aren't worth worrying about convincing anyway.

My observation is this: this forum used to have a significantly higher percentage of skeptics - people with the requisite expert knowledge and discursive skills to make this a vital skeptical center combating, at least in this little corner of the interwebz, the Disinformation Age. There was always the Politics forum that had a range of... characters... who had little expertise or knowledge, but a lot of passion for their politics which in itself is rarely about skepticism: quite the contrary; it's the baser tribalistic element of our nature.

Over the years, the skeptics appear to have largely abandoned this forum, and consequently it has rebalanced around the fairly large Politics population. Those who frequent that subforum rarely, if ever, venture out and as such remain mostly unaware of the skeptical subculture existing around them. Thus people like mrjonno will trot out vapid shite in declarative form and then be terminally incapable of presenting even the most elementary level of support for his assertions (the fact that he wrote it is about the most he can ever point to as evidence) something that elsewhere on this forum would be considered stock currency, the chips you need to have to sit at the table - as such, there's something of a culture clash these days between those who have always been part of the Politics forum and never taken part in the other fora, and the few remaining skeptics who in turn rarely venture into the Politics forum due to the general pointlessness of it.

Personally, if I could wave a magic wand, I'd make the politics forum disappear. It may have the most posts and contribute the majority of the membership today, but I rarely see anything there which amounts to being aligned with this website's nominal focus. I think the rational skepticism of this site has been diluted to almost homeopathic levels, and now I can only entertain nostalgia for those distant days when this site was a place of learning, where every time I logged in there'd be a post in one of the science sections that would give me an education in a topic I was unfamiliar with. Being part of that was rewarding in ways that battering at each other over political preferences can never hope to be because there's nothing really of substance to learn.

Incidentally, this post responds to your few lines with many, many more words. However, you completely misread what I wrote earlier. I don't try to wear people down by writing a lot, nor is it verbiage as I endeavor to write as clearly as possible, with proper grammar, spelling and paragraph structure to the point I will typically go back and edit my post if I spot a mistake. I can't bear the entire idea of Twitter: if something's worth saying, it's worth explaining it comprehensively. What I actually meant was that I counter trolling with massive quantities of sources far more credible than the troll's assertions so that, over the passage of posts, it becomes clear to others where the legitimate argument lies - that's where you stop caring about the troll, or convincing them, and instead allow them to show themselves up by how poorly they fare in addressing evidence countering their claims.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#300  Postby tuco » Jul 30, 2019 9:52 pm

@aban57

/shrugs

If you want to hang on technicalities and/or momentary slips, go ahead. Mile_L is a long time and consistent member of this community who, in my opinion, does not want to disturb nor destroy it and who speaks his mind for the most part. That is the end game for me. But he said .. ok, and so what? Do we need to be right or just get along?
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