Russian and US ambitions and motivations

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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#301  Postby Alan C » Jul 30, 2019 9:55 pm

It's an interesting point, I've certainly found myself spending the majority of my time here in the Politics section compared to when I started [and at RDF] in the Debunk section and sometimes Theism. At that time I seldom set foot in the General Topics.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#302  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 30, 2019 10:02 pm

Alan C wrote:It's an interesting point, I've certainly found myself spending the majority of my time here in the Politics section compared to when I started [and at RDF] in the Debunk section and sometimes Theism. At that time I seldom set foot in the General Topics.


If you log in and click 'new posts', chances are that the majority of them will be in the Politics forum, usually the same 4 or 5 threads with a dozen new posts in each, whereas a thread started in any of the science fora will be lucky to get 3 replies in a week. Tis a shame, but not much any one of us can do about it.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#303  Postby felltoearth » Jul 31, 2019 2:14 am

tuco wrote:I do not. I can't talk to Spearthrower directly because he is on my list for another few months, need to check how many, probably till X-mas. You sensed the enemy part. How about sensing not getting along part? What point there is in exchanges between people who do not get along?

If “reading your words” = “sensing” then yeah I guess I “sensed” that part.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#304  Postby laklak » Jul 31, 2019 3:06 am

The likes of Feral OT will never be seen again, sadly.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#305  Postby Mike_L » Jul 31, 2019 9:03 am

Re: trolling... tuco has said it better than I could. :thumbup:

@Spearthrower:

We're not gonna see eye-to-eye. The same applies to many of the other posters here. It became apparent to me viewing the responses when I cited veteran journalist and Pulitzer Prize winner Chris Hedges, and Russia-affairs academic Stephen F. Cohen. Dismissed simply because of association with RT.com. The very accomplished Glenn Greenwald... dismissed. Ditto Caitlin Johnstone, Aaron Maté, Tucker Carlson and others... dismissed. Anyone who has expressed vaguely conciliatory remarks about Russia-Putin... dismissed. I dare not cite Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone. He has been deemed acceptable on this forum in the past, but he has since appeared on Hedges' show at RT.com... so he's out now too, I guess.

Every point I make is condemned as support for a "nasty regime", and every attempt to put Russia's actions into a realpolitik context is dismissed as 'tu quoque'.

And all of the above is likely to be dismissed as "whining". It probably is whining. But I think it'll be my last whining in the foreseeable future.
I'm not sufficiently tenacious to engage in endless argument. So there's not gonna be any pro-Russia or pro-Putin voice on the forum anymore (unless some other RT fan arrives on the scene).
Maybe my positions really were indefensible all along. Maybe I'm just worn out. Maybe it's a bit of both. You can decide. :thumbup:

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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#306  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 31, 2019 9:36 am

Mike_L wrote:It became apparent to me viewing the responses when I cited veteran journalist and Pulitzer Prize winner Chris Hedges, and Russia-affairs academic Stephen F. Cohen. Dismissed simply because of association with RT.com. The very accomplished Glenn Greenwald... dismissed. Ditto Caitlin Johnstone, Aaron Maté, Tucker Carlson and others... dismissed.


Not wishing to join in the blame-game here, but I don't think you'll find I 'dismissed' any of them except Tucker Carlson who is a fruitbat.

But still, an association with RT is problematic because it is beyond credible doubt that it is a Kremlin mouthpiece, expressly used by Putin's government to forward Putin's agenda, and it provides warped, spurious half news specifically intended to align with policy. It invariably paints Russia both as the victim and a proud defender of liberal values even while Russia frequently victimizes other small nations in its orbit and stomps all over dissent in its own borders. It is, of course, not a problem for it to be just pro-Russia, but it also engages in what we have come to call 'fake news', contriving manufactured lies to distort events to either foment distrust and discord among those supposed partners and their citizens, or to outright distort reality as in the case of the Skripal poisoning - it is simply not a trustworthy news source, so no matter how highly prized a journalist may be, that they chose to associated with RT then it is as much a condemnation of them as if they chose to be associated with InfoWars - the hard truth is simply that InfoWars couldn't afford to offer them enough money to check their self-respect in at the door.

And while we're talking about ignoring things we don't like, you ignored the sources showing that InfoWars borrows a substantial portion of its content from RT. Presumably you don't consider InfoWars to be a legitimate source of news, so how exactly do you square this? How can InfoWars, a channel whose name is synonymous with crackpot conspiracy ranting, lift so much of its content from RT yet you still consider its own source material legitimate? There's an intentional blindness there, and it deserves to be challenged.


Mike_L wrote:
Every point I make is condemned as support for a "nasty regime", and every attempt to put Russia's actions into a realpolitik context is dismissed as 'tu quoque'.


This I very much disagree with your formulation of. You are expressly trying to support that nasty regime - you've done so in many ways that are irrational, like joining in with RT's insane water-muddying of the Skripal poisoning - it's like you think you have to support ALL of RT's claims, which is why you're not taken seriously. If you were presenting some of what RT said as valid, but then acknowledged where it leapt willfully off the cliff, then you might find your views weren't being taken as warped rhetoric. Also, you don't get to paint the illegal annexation of Crimea repeatedly as 'reunification' then complain about how people aren't being fair to you. You purposefully employ words like that because it aligns with Russian propaganda, consequently calling your usage of those words repetition of propaganda is wholly justified. Perhaps instead of blaming everyone's response, you could consider whether your behavior in that regard is rational or, in fact, worthy of criticism.


Mike_L wrote:And all of the above is likely to be dismissed as "whining". It probably is whining. But I think it'll be my last whining in the foreseeable future.


You'll have to point out where you were charged with whining, because again, that charge has nothing to do with me.


Mike_L wrote:I'm not sufficiently tenacious to engage in endless argument.


I'm not sure I credit that.


Mike_L wrote:So there's not gonna be any pro-Russia or pro-Putin voice on the forum anymore (unless some other RT fan arrives on the scene).


You weren't a pro-Russia voice, or else you'd be expressing concern for the protestors being locked up and the opposition being threatened, attacked, and potentially poisoned. You haven't expressed any such interest in *Russia* at all, your only position is pro-Putin, and not having a pro-Putin voice on the forum is not going to be a loss to anyone, sorry to say.


Mike_L wrote:Maybe my positions really were indefensible all along. Maybe I'm just worn out. Maybe it's a bit of both. You can decide. :thumbup:


And maybe you should invest some of that resultingly conserved energy in questioning why you arrived here arguing on the internet on behalf of RT the Kremlin mouthpiece and retracing your steps as to how you came to be so invested in the details of Russian propaganda considering you live half a world away.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#307  Postby Mike_L » Jul 31, 2019 10:15 am

Spearthrower wrote:You weren't a pro-Russia voice, or else you'd be expressing concern for the protestors being locked up and the opposition being threatened, attacked, and potentially poisoned. You haven't expressed any such interest in *Russia* at all, your only position is pro-Putin, and not having a pro-Putin voice on the forum is not going to be a loss to anyone, sorry to say.

Are the protestors representative of the majority in Russia? Or merely a very vocal, very prominent minority?
What the hell. It wouldn't matter to you one way or another.

...your only position is pro-Putin, and not having a pro-Putin voice on the forum is not going to be a loss to anyone...

Yeah, I kind-of guessed that that might be the case. :lol:

Mike_L wrote:Maybe my positions really were indefensible all along. Maybe I'm just worn out. Maybe it's a bit of both. You can decide. :thumbup:


And maybe you should invest some of that resultingly conserved energy in questioning why you arrived here arguing on the internet on behalf of RT the Kremlin mouthpiece and retracing your steps as to how you came to be so invested in the details of Russian propaganda considering you live half a world away.

I already know why, and I've already stated why... across multiple threads, over several years.
It rankles with you. It needn't anymore, because there'll be no fresh input. :thumbup:
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#308  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 31, 2019 10:22 am

Mike_L wrote:Are the protestors representative of the majority in Russia? Or merely a very vocal, very prominent minority?
What the hell. It wouldn't matter to you one way or another.


You mean it doesn't matter to you one way or another.


Mike_L wrote:
...your only position is pro-Putin, and not having a pro-Putin voice on the forum is not going to be a loss to anyone...

Yeah, I kind-of guessed that that might be the case. :lol:


We also don't need a pro Kim Jong-Un voice, or a pro Bashar Al-Assad voice, or a pro Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo voice... - need - being the operative word. Should someone elect to become such a voice, then they can expect their expressed views to be held up to critical scrutiny. The difference, of course, is that if someone were to arrive here to promulgate such views, they wouldn't be cashing in on their long-term good standing and would receive much shorter shrift than you.


Mike_L wrote:
I already know why, and I've already stated why... across multiple threads, over several years.
It rankles with you. It needn't anymore, because there'll be no fresh input. :thumbup:


It doesn't 'rankle' at all with me, thanks for your projection, as I quite literally have no idea why you've elected to become a mouthpiece of an autocratic regime in a forum expressly dedicated to rational skepticism.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#309  Postby mindhack » Jul 31, 2019 10:45 am

Spearthrower wrote:And maybe you should invest some of that resultingly conserved energy in questioning why you arrived here arguing on the internet on behalf of RT the Kremlin mouthpiece and retracing your steps as to how you came to be so invested in the details of Russian propaganda considering you live half a world away.

I think I've sensed from Mike_L's posting history that it's the multi-polar world narrative.

If I may hazard a guess I suspect at some point far back in time, Mike_L, having become aware of so many injustices,
commited by elements of the US-empire, its international malpractices and human rights abuses, he accepted the narrative as an essential step forward to a better world. Where a better world equals an end to US imperialism. So the narrative from team-Putin was accepted.

So, in case my guess is worth something, my question to you, Mike, would be: At what stage will your support for Putin fade, because it should be no longer required?

Could it fade if Putin announces the multipolar world is upon us? Will it fade when for example NATO is dismantled? Will it fade if the US has a clear adjustment in foreign policy? How and when could it fade, Mike?

Or will you support Putin forever, no matter what, even if that would entail him doing the most horrendous things possible?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#310  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 31, 2019 11:06 am

mindhack wrote:
I think I've sensed from Mike_L's posting history that it's the multi-polar world narrative.

If I may hazard a guess I suspect at some point far back in time, Mike_L, having become aware of so many injustices,
commited by elements of the US-empire, its international malpractices and human rights abuses, he accepted the narrative as an essential step forward to a better world. Where a better world equals an end to US imperialism. So the narrative from team-Putin was accepted.



Yes; what Mike doesn't seem to appreciate is that it's not binary. One can be critical of US imperialism AND still find Russia's annexation of Crimea deplorable, and its treatment of opposition to be autocratic. In fact, that's the opposite of hypocrisy - it's treating all similar topics with the same standards and values. That tendency to point to another country and say look at them, they're bad too, as if that then makes Putin's Russia's actions acceptable is exactly what caused the clash. Mike's not expressly stated it but has tossed out several times the implication that others are pro-US or its policies, whereas there's no sound reason for this. In fact, I would say that the membership of this forum is nearly universally critical of US foreign policy, and would be just as loud and critical of the US annexing a chunk of a sovereign nation as they are of Russia doing it. It's Mike who wants to criticize the US/NATO/Rest of the World but deflect any and all negative perspectives on Russia; it's hypocrisy, and I can see no reason why it shouldn't be called out, regardless of whether he's 'one of us' or not. If a new member came and tried out that hypocrisy, I expect people would be a lot more robust in their engagement, so my question is why substantive criticism of Mike's position should be anything other than that.

I've never been into the 'us and them' mentality. I'll always argue my position regardless of whether it's popular or not, whether that be here or in RL. Examples here include me rejecting whole-heartedly the idea that babies and bricks are atheist - it may not be the popular viewpoint, but I am not going to pretend to concur just to be one of the gang. Similarly, even though it netted imaginative depictions of me being burned alive, I refused to go along with a certain sub-section of the forum's populace viewpoint that the Muslims are coming and they want to murder us in our beds. So I reject the blossoming notions introduced earlier in this thread that there's an 'approved' position by the forum and we're all trying to maintain the echo chamber in ape-group grooming fashion.

Rather, from my perspective, I see parallels between Mike's methodology and the Creationist wedge style strategies, the teach the controversy rhetoric which has been latched onto by the far-right in Europe and the US. The idea is that there's another story, a set of equal alternative facts, and that refusing to acknowledge them is close-minded, unfair, and excludes honest discussion. It's a manufactured, self-serving controversy, and the reason why it gets criticized is because it doesn't stand up to critical scrutiny and cannot survive rational debate.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#311  Postby aban57 » Jul 31, 2019 11:21 am

Mike_L wrote:
Are the protestors representative of the majority in Russia? Or merely a very vocal, very prominent minority?
What the hell. It wouldn't matter to you one way or another.


Well it shouldn't matter to anyone, really. What the hell does this have to do with the way opposition is treated ? Would you say the same if any party in the world did the same ? Silencing any opposition (by killing, deporting, imprisonning or whatever) is the first thing dictators do when they reach power (see Turkey for example), and they keep doing it to maintain it.
So again, why would the alledged small representativity of the protesters be of any relevance to the fact that they're sent to prison and possibly poisoned ?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#312  Postby mindhack » Jul 31, 2019 12:03 pm

Spearthrower wrote:I've never been into the 'us and them' mentality.

Are you sure?

Isn't that an integral part of our history as a species, something you specialized in? :)
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#313  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 31, 2019 12:09 pm

mindhack wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:I've never been into the 'us and them' mentality.

Are you sure?

Isn't that an integral part of our history as a species, something you specialized in? :)


I may sometimes be guilty of it, but it's not something I'm into - it doesn't jiggle my pole, tickle my pickle, or choke my goat.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#314  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jul 31, 2019 12:09 pm

I think everyone should give up on this discussion.
what a terrible image
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#315  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 31, 2019 12:37 pm

Mike_L wrote:I'm not sufficiently tenacious to engage in endless argument.


Tenacity isn't enough, because there isn't an inexhaustible supply of it -- you will be fucking dead sooner or later. You've just gotten to the same place arrived at by every other ideologue who rolls up here and finds he needs to take a break at some point. I hope you don't actually believe you're having problems simply because you've tried to articulate a difficult position and haven't yet perfected the presentation, because you know it's not somebody else's fault if you don't impart an incoherent point.

I didn't say your point is incoherent, even if I think it is; you're the one insisting that tenacity is needed now.

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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#316  Postby tuco » Jul 31, 2019 3:14 pm

aban57 wrote:
tuco wrote:No that is how you define trolls, and it is in my opinion not only unfair and unjust but also idiotic. People with fringe opinions exist and they have every right to voice them. Labeling them as trolls, and yes it happened here a lot in past, is just .. as I said. Such people do nothing wrong but voice their opinions. That some people get worked out by such opinions? Fuck them, they have no right to be offended. However, people who intentionally disturb debate, intentionally yank other people chain, in order to amuse themselves or hurt others, are just .. bad .. people and while I would not banish them myself I would not defend them either. Punishing someone for weird opinions is fucked up, it's communist.


Well you're right, and that the basic of Poe's law. So how do you tell the difference between someone who spreads bullshit for fun, and someone who actualy believes it ? I'd say (and could be wrong here) it's the intent. So when someone says he's trolling, it's the manifestation of malicious intent, even if it doesn't concern all his posts.
I have a hard time believing that Mike_L actually believes everything he says. And by admitting himself he's trolling, he's only confirming that.


How do I tell the difference is a simple question with no simple answer. I have no algorithm nor set of rules and I make my judgments or guesses on case to case basis. Also, note that I said "in my opinion" and "I do not think" to declare uncertainty.

In the case of Mike_L .. I am not sure it's correct to talk about him - why I do not believe he is a troll by my definition - here just to satisfy your curiosity. Let's just say that he is consistent, has clearly defined topics of interest and displays friendly gestures towards other members on a regular basis.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#317  Postby newolder » Aug 10, 2019 4:19 pm

It appears Putin's crackdown on pro-democracy protests in Moscow is working really well.

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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#318  Postby aban57 » Aug 10, 2019 4:21 pm

newolder wrote:It appears Putin's crackdown on pro-democracy protests in Moscow is working really well.

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Image via Twitter


Fake. That's a picture of a gulag.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#319  Postby newolder » Aug 10, 2019 4:24 pm

You could be right. It's certainly not the queue for Spartak Moscow v CSKA Moscow on August 25th.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#320  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 10, 2019 5:35 pm

aban57 wrote:
newolder wrote:It appears Putin's crackdown on pro-democracy protests in Moscow is working really well.

Image

Image via Twitter


Fake. That's a picture of a gulag.



It's actually Trump's Inauguration crowd!

:smoke:
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