Russian and US ambitions and motivations

Split from Trump Watch thread

For discussion of politics, and what's going on in the world today.

Moderators: Blip, The_Metatron

Re: President Trump Watch.

#1  Postby Mike_L » Jun 22, 2019 1:07 pm

Tucker Carlson is not much liked at Ratskep...
He's right-wing.
His approach to 'debating' is simplistic and disingenuous (he alternates between ridiculing his opponents and interrupting them so that they can't get a word in edgewise).
And he makes some truly daft comments, this being but one example. (I watched the full video and, no, he wasn't joking about the metric system "conspiracy").
But here he hits the nail on the head, taking on the warmonger neocons of Washington...

* 2:45: War with Iran would cost America dearly.

* 4:25: Clip of Carlson vs John Bolton in an earlier interview. The arrogance of Bolton is astonishing. Says Carlson retrospectively: "Normal people don't talk like that. There's nothing normal about John Bolton".

* 6:00: Clip showing John Bolton promising a cheering crowd that the US will overthrow the Iranian government.

* 6:37: Carlson says, "John Bolton is a kind of bureaucratic tapeworm. Try as you might, you can't expel him. He seems to live forever in the bowels of the federal agencies, periodically reemerging to cause pain and suffering... but, critically, somehow never suffering himself. His life really is Washington in a nutshell. Blunder into obvious catastrophes again and again, refuse to admit blame, and then demand more of the same. That's the John Bolton life cycle. War may be a disaster for America, but for John Bolton and his fellow neocons it's always good business".



Edit: fixed one of the links
User avatar
Mike_L
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 13709
Age: 51
Male

Country: South Africa
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: President Trump Watch.

#2  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 22, 2019 1:56 pm

The President 'thwarted their plans'... wut?

They weren't going ahead alone; they were going because he'd already given the go ahead.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 26315
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#3  Postby Animavore » Jun 22, 2019 2:15 pm

And Trump appointed Bolton.

So far from "hitting the nail on the head", he put down Bolton to raise Trump as some sort of champion against the establishment.

A truly disgusting form of propoganda.
A most evolved electron.
User avatar
Animavore
 
Name: The Scribbler
Posts: 43334
Age: 41
Male

Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#4  Postby Animavore » Jun 22, 2019 2:24 pm

Who bets that if Trump went to war Tucker will support and justify it?
A most evolved electron.
User avatar
Animavore
 
Name: The Scribbler
Posts: 43334
Age: 41
Male

Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#5  Postby Mike_L » Jun 22, 2019 4:45 pm

Spearthrower wrote:The President 'thwarted their plans'... wut?

They weren't going ahead alone; they were going because he'd already given the go ahead.

True.

And...
Animavore wrote:And Trump appointed Bolton.

True.

But...
By May 2019, Trump had undercut some of Bolton's major hard line positions, stating he was not seeking regime change in Iran and contradicting Bolton's correct assertion that North Korea had recently violated United Nations resolutions by testing new short-range missiles.
-- Wikipedia

I'm not defending Trump. To the extent that he's pushed back against Bolton, he's done it only for the sake of his own ego.
Trump is vacillating between a halfhearted attempt to honor (or appear to honor) his campaign promises / lies to reduce US involvement in the Middle East, and kowtowing to the neocons. Trump is mentally weak, dishonest and erratic, and neocons like Bolton are all too willing to exploit that.

Animavore wrote:So far from "hitting the nail on the head", he put down Bolton to raise Trump as some sort of champion against the establishment.

And, while Carlson's ardor for Trump may be way too great, he is nevertheless entirely correct to put down Bolton and "the establishment".
The neocon influence in Washington is bipartisan. It's a dangerous phenomenon well covered in this September 2018 essay in The Nation...
The Unholy Neocon–Liberal Alliance

Animavore wrote:Who bets that if Trump went to war Tucker will support and justify it?

Unlikely.
Last year, Carlson contradicted the Trump line that Syria's Assad gassed his own people.
And now that an OPCW whistleblower has revealed how the organisation suppressed evidence suggesting that the 'rebels' were actually responsible for the attack, Carlson was one of the few high-profile commentators to highlight the issue. In a video that basically says "the Trump administration was wrong", he interviews anti-war Democrat Tulsi Gabbard on the topic.

It's entirely correct to criticise Trump, but it shouldn't be at the expense of recognising that "the establishment" is part of the problem.
User avatar
Mike_L
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 13709
Age: 51
Male

Country: South Africa
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#6  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 22, 2019 7:52 pm

Mike_L wrote:
It's entirely correct to criticise Trump, but it shouldn't be at the expense of recognising that "the establishment" is part of the problem.


And all the above post is also true, and also comes with a but.

The establishment concerned was established by Trump! :lol:

First generals, then neocon hawks - I mean, insofar as he is capable of making any coherent rational decision, these were his choices... and insofar as he has a clue about the world, he must have had some tiny little inkling in his egomaniac ganglia centre that was pointing out in crayon drawings that these guys are all quite happily subscribing to PNAC.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 26315
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#7  Postby Spinozasgalt » Jun 23, 2019 1:39 am

Mike_L wrote:Last year, Carlson contradicted the Trump line that Syria's Assad gassed his own people.
And now that an OPCW whistleblower has revealed how the organisation suppressed evidence suggesting that the 'rebels' were actually responsible for the attack, Carlson was one of the few high-profile commentators to highlight the issue. In a video that basically says "the Trump administration was wrong", he interviews anti-war Democrat Tulsi Gabbard on the topic.

It's entirely correct to criticise Trump, but it shouldn't be at the expense of recognising that "the establishment" is part of the problem.

Carlson is being pushed as anti-war by the same leftists I mentioned on the other page. Many of them are also some of Gabbard's biggest supporters/cheerleaders. I guess some of them think there's a possiblity of a red-brown alliance to end wars and they just become useful idiots, and others...well, Greenwald's got history of defending racists to show his fine liberal principles.

They're useful to Fox because they'll bash other leftists and go along with what Carlson is saying, effectively rehabilitating him to their own audiences - they're mostly uneducated about how Carlson's white nationalism is non-interventionist by design or they don't care. They're useful to RT because they'll repeat the Russian government's line as part of a selective anti-imperialist narrative. Case in point, they frame the OPCW document in precisely the way RT does.
When the straight and narrow gets a little too straight, roll up the joint.
Or don't. Just follow your arrow wherever it points.

Kacey Musgraves
User avatar
Spinozasgalt
RS Donator
 
Name: Jennifer
Posts: 18380
Age: 33
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: President Trump Watch.

#8  Postby Mike_L » Jun 23, 2019 8:36 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
It's entirely correct to criticise Trump, but it shouldn't be at the expense of recognising that "the establishment" is part of the problem.


And all the above post is also true, and also comes with a but.

The establishment concerned was established by Trump! :lol:

First generals, then neocon hawks - I mean, insofar as he is capable of making any coherent rational decision, these were his choices... and insofar as he has a clue about the world, he must have had some tiny little inkling in his egomaniac ganglia centre that was pointing out in crayon drawings that these guys are all quite happily subscribing to PNAC.


Well, Trump's first choice for the position of National Security Advisor was the less hawkish Michael Flynn. And it was the Obama-Hillary-DNC triumvirate that concocted the Russiagate hoax to get him ousted, inadvertently (or not) paving the way for McMaster and Bolton.

The neocon establishment precedes Trump. Its influence in Washington spans administrations, Dem and Rep alike. Consider Trump's Democrat predecessor, for instance...
In 2008, Barack Obama campaigned on opposition to the wars of the Bush administration. On the strength of his utterances, he was prematurely given the Nobel Peace Prize, which turned out to be the first big joke of the still-young 21st century...
In his first year in office Obama oversaw the "troop surge" in Afghanistan.
He expanded on Bush's drone assassination programme and drew up 'kill lists'.
In 2011, the Obama Administration involved the US in the NATO regime-change war in Libya, which led to the ruin of that country and the expansion of jihadist influence in North Africa.
And it was the Obama Administration that launched the Timber Sycamore operation to arm and train Syrian rebels jihadist mercenaries for the purpose of conducting yet another regime-change war.
And it was under the Obama Administration that Victoria Nuland (wife of PNAC founder member Robert Kagan) meddled in the political affairs of Ukraine.
It was also under Obama that the US began its involvement in the Yemen war.
By the time he was in his second term, the Nobel peace laureate was boasting that he had bombed seven countries.

In light of the above, there are two possibilities...
* the war-shy Obama of 2008 was a lying sociopath.
* Obama really meant to limit US global aggression, but upon arrival in office found that he had limited (or zero) influence to change a foreign policy course that had been set decades earlier.

While it's not impossible that the truth is a combination of those two, it's more likely that the second one is predominantly true.
Current US foreign policy was forged in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Since the early 1990s it has been about the consolidation of the US as the world's sole super power. Over more than a quarter-century, the giant bureaucracy that spans administrations has invested trillions of dollars in that ideal. No incoming President (be it Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden, or anybody else) will change the course of Good (Battle)Ship America. The neocons are at the helm while the President swabs the deck.
User avatar
Mike_L
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 13709
Age: 51
Male

Country: South Africa
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#9  Postby Mike_L » Jun 23, 2019 8:42 am

Spinozasgalt wrote:
Mike_L wrote:Last year, Carlson contradicted the Trump line that Syria's Assad gassed his own people.
And now that an OPCW whistleblower has revealed how the organisation suppressed evidence suggesting that the 'rebels' were actually responsible for the attack, Carlson was one of the few high-profile commentators to highlight the issue. In a video that basically says "the Trump administration was wrong", he interviews anti-war Democrat Tulsi Gabbard on the topic.

It's entirely correct to criticise Trump, but it shouldn't be at the expense of recognising that "the establishment" is part of the problem.

Carlson is being pushed as anti-war by the same leftists I mentioned on the other page. Many of them are also some of Gabbard's biggest supporters/cheerleaders. I guess some of them think there's a possiblity of a red-brown alliance to end wars and they just become useful idiots, and others...well, Greenwald's got history of defending racists to show his fine liberal principles.

They're useful to Fox because they'll bash other leftists and go along with what Carlson is saying, effectively rehabilitating him to their own audiences - they're mostly uneducated about how Carlson's white nationalism is non-interventionist by design or they don't care. They're useful to RT because they'll repeat the Russian government's line as part of a selective anti-imperialist narrative. Case in point, they frame the OPCW document in precisely the way RT does.


Thank god for RT.com. The recent OPCW document reveals that the Russians were telling the truth all along... and that, astonishingly, the US establishment media that lied about Iraq and Libya lied about Syria as well.
User avatar
Mike_L
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 13709
Age: 51
Male

Country: South Africa
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#10  Postby Animavore » Jun 23, 2019 9:01 am

Mike_L wrote:
Well, Trump's first choice for the position of National Security Advisor etc...


And yet Trump still ordered the strike.
A most evolved electron.
User avatar
Animavore
 
Name: The Scribbler
Posts: 43334
Age: 41
Male

Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#11  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Jun 23, 2019 9:10 am

Mike_L wrote:… the Obama-Hillary-DNC triumvirate…

Blame Obama, blame Oobama!

* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

meh
User avatar
Agi Hammerthief
 
Posts: 2570
Age: 46
Male

Country: .de
Germany (de)
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#12  Postby Mike_L » Jun 23, 2019 9:25 am

Animavore wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
Well, Trump's first choice for the position of National Security Advisor etc...


And yet Trump still ordered the strike.

Yes, like puppet Obama before him, Trump acted in accordance with the will of the neocon string-pullers.
The dramatic "last-minute turnaround" was probably all part of the script that he was given. It's political theatre. The decisions regarding Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc. were made years (perhaps decades) ago.

Sometimes the door opens just a crack and we get a glimpse of the truth...



If they actually cared about public opinion (they don't), they'd probably regret that they let :this: one through.
General Wesley Clark can't be dismissed as a RT.com stooge.
User avatar
Mike_L
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 13709
Age: 51
Male

Country: South Africa
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#13  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 23, 2019 10:13 am

The Koch Brothers and the Waltons have more power than the president. America is run by the 1%.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 43070
Age: 70
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#14  Postby Spinozasgalt » Jun 23, 2019 10:51 am

Mike_L wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:
Mike_L wrote:Last year, Carlson contradicted the Trump line that Syria's Assad gassed his own people.
And now that an OPCW whistleblower has revealed how the organisation suppressed evidence suggesting that the 'rebels' were actually responsible for the attack, Carlson was one of the few high-profile commentators to highlight the issue. In a video that basically says "the Trump administration was wrong", he interviews anti-war Democrat Tulsi Gabbard on the topic.

It's entirely correct to criticise Trump, but it shouldn't be at the expense of recognising that "the establishment" is part of the problem.

Carlson is being pushed as anti-war by the same leftists I mentioned on the other page. Many of them are also some of Gabbard's biggest supporters/cheerleaders. I guess some of them think there's a possiblity of a red-brown alliance to end wars and they just become useful idiots, and others...well, Greenwald's got history of defending racists to show his fine liberal principles.

They're useful to Fox because they'll bash other leftists and go along with what Carlson is saying, effectively rehabilitating him to their own audiences - they're mostly uneducated about how Carlson's white nationalism is non-interventionist by design or they don't care. They're useful to RT because they'll repeat the Russian government's line as part of a selective anti-imperialist narrative. Case in point, they frame the OPCW document in precisely the way RT does.


Thank god for RT.com. The recent OPCW document reveals that the Russians were telling the truth all along... and that, astonishingly, the US establishment media that lied about Iraq and Libya lied about Syria as well.

Image
When the straight and narrow gets a little too straight, roll up the joint.
Or don't. Just follow your arrow wherever it points.

Kacey Musgraves
User avatar
Spinozasgalt
RS Donator
 
Name: Jennifer
Posts: 18380
Age: 33
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#15  Postby Mike_L » Jun 23, 2019 11:51 am

positive_hulk.jpg
positive_hulk.jpg (14.21 KiB) Viewed 1319 times
User avatar
Mike_L
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 13709
Age: 51
Male

Country: South Africa
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: President Trump Watch.

#16  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 23, 2019 12:29 pm

Mike_L wrote:
In light of the above, there are two possibilities...
* the war-shy Obama of 2008 was a lying sociopath.
* Obama really meant to limit US global aggression, but upon arrival in office found that he had limited (or zero) influence to change a foreign policy course that had been set decades earlier.



There is another possibility, and it's the old much bandied quotation which apparently everyone ever said - no plan survives contact with the enemy.

What I mean by this is that you can't, as the leader of a nation, have an absolute policy never to get engaged in any war, because that's really just asking for those hostile to you to ramp up their efforts. You can't predict everything that will happen in advance, but will need to respond to some of the things that happen which were outside of your control. An example of this is the events in Yemen, while not an argument that what the US is doing there is effective or desirable, not doing anything is still doing something when it comes to leaving one population to murder another.

I've no doubt there are career neocons at all levels of any US administration, but the buck still stops with the Commander in Chief - none of them can drop bombs, fire rockets or send fleets or troops to any part of the world without the President's say so. Thus while I don't doubt that Bolton is a total fuckwad whose passing of mortal restraints will result in a measurably better world, he was still appointed by Trump, still needs Trump's approval to do anything, and it was Trump's say-so which led to this situation, so the notion that Trump's the good guy riding in with the cavalry at the 11th hour to save the US and Iran from conflict is just not something I can swallow. Like much of Fox news propaganda.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 26315
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#17  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 23, 2019 12:32 pm

Mike_L wrote:
Thank god for RT.com.


RT's one of the very few English language channels available on my network box, and I have to say that more than half the time it's like a high budget Infowars. Sometimes it's so doolally, you have to wonder whether some of the producers are fans of the Onion News Network.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 26315
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#18  Postby Mike_L » Jun 23, 2019 1:30 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
In light of the above, there are two possibilities...
* the war-shy Obama of 2008 was a lying sociopath.
* Obama really meant to limit US global aggression, but upon arrival in office found that he had limited (or zero) influence to change a foreign policy course that had been set decades earlier.



There is another possibility, and it's the old much bandied quotation which apparently everyone ever said - no plan survives contact with the enemy.

What I mean by this is that you can't, as the leader of a nation, have an absolute policy never to get engaged in any war, because that's really just asking for those hostile to you to ramp up their efforts.

Except that, after WW2, every war in which the US has engaged itself has been an elective war, not a defensive one.
Even if one accepts that the open-ended 'War On Terror' is a response to the 9/11 attacks, it's noteworthy that the nations since attacked by the US and its allies had nothing to do with what happened at the WTC towers and Pentagon.

I've no doubt there are career neocons at all levels of any US administration, but the buck still stops with the Commander in Chief - none of them can drop bombs, fire rockets or send fleets or troops to any part of the world without the President's say so. Thus while I don't doubt that Bolton is a total fuckwad whose passing of mortal restraints will result in a measurably better world, he was still appointed by Trump, still needs Trump's approval to do anything, and it was Trump's say-so which led to this situation, so the notion that Trump's the good guy riding in with the cavalry at the 11th hour to save the US and Iran from conflict is just not something I can swallow. Like much of Fox news propaganda.

I see your point, but disagree. I see US Presidents as figureheads, whose power (especially as regards foreign policy) is delimited by an overarching policy (as I motivate in post #16899).
The US President has certain leeway (or appears to), as long as he acts within the boundaries of established policy. He can't deviate from a course in which trillions of dollars have been invested. That course was set after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Its main precepts are set out in the Wolfowitz Doctrine, written in 1992 (the year following the implosion in Moscow). Essentially, the doctrine espouses a unipolar world order with the US in the driver's seat. Even the most casual analysis of US foreign policy since the 1990s shows that every US president since then (Bush Snr, Bill Clinton, Bush Jnr, Obama, Trump) has acted toward the fulfillment of that goal.
With regards to Iran, Trump has acted (and is acting) according to the well-worn script...
Identify enemy nation, demonise existing leadership of that nation, create hardship through economic warfare (sanctions) whilst simultaneously supporting opposition groups / terrorist groups within the country, finish up with military action.
Trump didn't write that decades-old script. He's just following it, adding a few gaudy Trumpesque flourishes as he goes.

Spearthrower wrote:
Well, Trump's first choice for the position of National Security Advisor was the less hawkish Michael Flynn. And it was the Obama-Hillary-DNC triumvirate that concocted the Russiagate hoax to get him ousted, inadvertently (or not) paving the way for McMaster and Bolton.


I'm a bit unclear on this Mike.

What hoax?

The idea of a hoax doesn't seem consistent with the Mueller report or Flynn's actions, dismissal and trial.

I'm with CIA veteran Ray McGovern on this one.
User avatar
Mike_L
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 13709
Age: 51
Male

Country: South Africa
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#19  Postby Spinozasgalt » Jun 23, 2019 1:51 pm

Mike_L wrote:I'm with CIA veteran Ray McGovern on this one.

After this post, Spearthrower may get a kick out of the fact that this fellow has actually been a contributor on Infowars. :dopey:
When the straight and narrow gets a little too straight, roll up the joint.
Or don't. Just follow your arrow wherever it points.

Kacey Musgraves
User avatar
Spinozasgalt
RS Donator
 
Name: Jennifer
Posts: 18380
Age: 33
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: President Trump Watch.

#20  Postby Mike_L » Jun 23, 2019 2:02 pm

Spinozasgalt wrote:
Mike_L wrote:I'm with CIA veteran Ray McGovern on this one.

After this post, Spearthrower may get a kick out of the fact that this fellow has actually been a contributor on Infowars. :dopey:

So he's doubly confirmed as a truth-teller then! :grin:
User avatar
Mike_L
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 13709
Age: 51
Male

Country: South Africa
Print view this post

Next

Return to News, Politics & Current Affairs

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest