Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

Nicola Sturgeon At Bute House

For discussion of politics, and what's going on in the world today.

Moderators: Blip, The_Metatron

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1041  Postby ronmcd » Apr 26, 2017 12:23 am

zerne wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
zerne wrote:
I don't know where this knee-jerk reaction to the Euro comes from. I've used Euros, they worked fine, and i didn't feel in any way less Scottish for the experience.

I don't know where this self-righteous know-it-all arrogance comes from, but I don't feel in any way obliged to keep listening to it.


You don't have any rational response?

Fuck off then.

See, thats the response I sorely wanted to write, but had the restraint to resist.
User avatar
ronmcd
 
Posts: 9744

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1042  Postby ronmcd » Apr 26, 2017 12:29 am

Byron wrote:
I've advocated taking the option that's a) economically sound, and b) most likely to win Indyref2. B) is most important, 'cause without it, everything's academic.

The best economic option may be currency union with iEngland (or, depending on how Brexit goes down south of the border, not), but as we saw in 2014, in handing power to the British Treasury, that's politically fatal. That leaves euro and Scottish pound.

We know how currencies are set up, and how to make it work: a bunch of European countries did it after the Warsaw Pact collapsed. This precedent, along with the comfort of the pound brand, can be sold.

Even if Yes2 went for the euro, it couldn't happen for several years after iScotland joined the EU. We're looking five years down the line, minimum, likely longer. That being so, Scotland needs an interim currency. She could use sterling, but we're back to giving an English treasury unjustifiable control over Scotland's economy. So even your position lends itself to starting with a Scottish pound.

:thumbup: everything I'd like to have written. I'm just going to blame the Brewdog for my inability to do so :whistle: but it's probably not the reason

Specifically, my bold.
User avatar
ronmcd
 
Posts: 9744

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1043  Postby ronmcd » Apr 26, 2017 12:30 am

Quite simply - it's politics. And there is no clear single "right" option, but a number of possibles each with advantages and disadvantages. As there were in 2014 ...
User avatar
ronmcd
 
Posts: 9744

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post


Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1045  Postby zerne » Apr 26, 2017 1:05 am

Byron wrote:
zerne wrote:
ronmcd wrote:Your main point appears to be that we should not be driven from the best option by political expediency or fear, and make the case instead for the clear best option no matter the political and rhetorical arguments that will undoubtedly be used against that option.

Both myself and Byron have largely advocated this. [...]

I've advocated taking the option that's a) economically sound, and b) most likely to win Indyref2. B) is most important, 'cause without it, everything's academic.


I think at this point inserting the caveat is redundant.

The biggest problem is that you've yet to demonstrate a) or b).

Whilst it is possible to launch a new currency, with all the costs and complications that involves, it doesn't appear to have any economic benefits beyond having control over setting monetary policy. And it can be argued that no Government should have that power, and that this should lie with the central bank.

You also haven't answered how this new currency is supposed to counter the slew of black propaganda you referenced when i suggested even mentioning the Euro as favoured long term goal.

I suggest it will be far harder to counter such claims when you have absolutely nothing to refer to.

Byron wrote:The best economic option may be currency union with iEngland (or, depending on how Brexit goes down south of the border, not), but as we saw in 2014, in handing power to the British Treasury, that's politically fatal.


Regardless of what happens, Sterling will be used even it if is temporarily. So if it's politically fatal, it fatal for every eventuality.

Byron wrote: That leaves euro and Scottish pound.

We know how currencies are set up, and how to make it work: a bunch of European countries did it after the Warsaw Pact collapsed. This precedent, along with the comfort of the pound brand, can be sold.


But what prevents the Euro fro being sold in the same manner? It has the advantage of being the currency in use of the trading bloc we want to join as well as there being a set of protocols for entry, as so many countries have done. Precedent with solid facts.

Byron wrote:Even if Yes2 went for the euro, it couldn't happen for several years after iScotland joined the EU. We're looking five years down the line, minimum, likely longer. That being so, Scotland needs an interim currency. She could use sterling, but we're back to giving an English treasury unjustifiable control over Scotland's economy. So even your position lends itself to starting with a Scottish pound.


No it really doesn't. Every option open begins with the existing currency of Sterling. How you enable a transition away from that is what's being discussed. A third, new, currency appears to be unnecessary since transition away from Sterling will take years regardless of whether it's to the Euro or the new currency.

Do you consider the European Central Bank as having "unjustifiable control" over other countries in the Eurozone? Because we're in a similar position at present due to the existing currency union. To my mind the benefits of independence and the economic levers that come under the Scottish Governments control will be far more useful in setting appropriate budgets than going for the launch of a new currency for a single benefit of being able to control monetary policy.
User avatar
zerne
 
Posts: 439
Age: 43
Male

European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1046  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 26, 2017 10:35 am

I have used Euros since 2002 with no problems. The thing I like is the comfort of using them when travelling. Going to France on holiday was a bloody nuisance. At least three currencies and working the exchange rates was a pain. Also calculating shop prices was an even greater one.
Economically have never had any bad experience and I wonder where the scare stories come from; speculators and envious pound users? They are using plastic money for the pound which is about right. Toy town will be the next stop for the pound.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 37906
Age: 68
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1047  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 26, 2017 10:39 am

A new currency would be madness when there is a perfectly good strong one available.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 37906
Age: 68
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1048  Postby ronmcd » Apr 26, 2017 10:44 am

I don't know where this idea came from that myself or Byron think there's a practical problem with the euro, that there would be problems with using the coins and notes? Weird. It's a political argument.
User avatar
ronmcd
 
Posts: 9744

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1049  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 26, 2017 10:51 am

ronmcd wrote:I don't know where this idea came from that myself or Byron think there's a practical problem with the euro, that there would be problems with using the coins and notes? Weird. It's a political argument.


I am just as perplexed. As if the pound is such a good currency. I think it was all the right wing propaganda that came out before the Euro appeared. Soros and friends were dead against it and so were/are many tories but they live under the illusion that the UK still means something just because is sits in many world councils that these days it has no right of a place. Once Brexit has happened and Scotland and NI pulls away it will become a third world back water.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 37906
Age: 68
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1050  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 26, 2017 10:55 am

Of course Byron keeps going on about the EEA as if that is an answer. It is neither one thing or the other. A halfway house going no where. The countries in it are exceptional and the UK is not which is the major problem. The illusion being that the UK is something which it is not.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 37906
Age: 68
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1051  Postby OlivierK » Apr 26, 2017 10:58 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:They are using plastic money for the pound which is about right. Toy town will be the next stop for the pound.

We've had polymer notes for going on 30 years now, and they're fucking fantastic. Pretty much unforgeable, if you miss one in your pocket they go through a washing machine completely undamaged, and (importantly in Australia) you can stick them in your pocket when you go into the surf, and have money on you for a coffee when you get out. It all depends on what you're used to - when we took our kids overseas, they couldn't believe how shitty and beat up paper banknotes looked. :lol:
User avatar
OlivierK
 
Posts: 7444
Age: 51
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1052  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 26, 2017 11:07 am

OlivierK wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:They are using plastic money for the pound which is about right. Toy town will be the next stop for the pound.

We've had polymer notes for going on 30 years now, and they're fucking fantastic. Pretty much unforgeable, if you miss one in your pocket they go through a washing machine completely undamaged, and (importantly in Australia) you can stick them in your pocket when you go into the surf, and have money on you for a coffee when you get out. It all depends on what you're used to - when we took our kids overseas, they couldn't believe how shitty and beat up paper banknotes looked. :lol:


I know Oliver I have been in Oz-land. I was being sarcastic that's all. They were suggested for the Euro but the idea never made it. I never use cash. I dont have a cent in my pocket. I have not even seen the new series of the Euro notes. I often use my phone in pubs and the staff prefer no cash. They just have mobile payment machines.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 37906
Age: 68
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1053  Postby Calilasseia » Apr 26, 2017 11:27 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:A new currency would be madness when there is a perfectly good strong one available.


The problem, as ronmcd and Byron have pointed out, isn't any economic issue with the Euro, which as you've said, works largely as intended. The problem is overcoming the rabid xenophobic propaganda of rags such as the Daily Heil, which have been able to propagate venomous myths virtually unchallenged. Whilst I suspect the Scots are somewhat less likely to fall for this than the Little Englander brigade, the constant bombardment, backed by big money Tory interests, would intensify enormously if any Scottish politician openly welcomed the Euro as a potential Scottish currency, even as a long term strategic objective as opposed to an immediate option.

Of course, there's also the little matter of whether an independent Scotland would be able to meet the joining criteria for the Euro, an entirely separate question, but at the moment, the toxic propaganda atmosphere that exists in the UK cannot be ignored, as much as many Scots themselves wish it could. One of the benefits that independence would bring, would be to decouple Scotland from that toxic propaganda atmosphere, because the Scots could set about implementing measures to defuse the likes of the Daily Heil. Which is something that the Tories are scared shitless of - an entire nation of people, sharing an easily traversible land border with the rest of the UK, freeing themselves from Tory shackles, telling the Tories to go and fuck themselves with a razor wire dildo, and implementing a successful social democratic economy. This would be the nightmare scenario for the fake "austerity" plutocracy Tories, who want to propagate the myth that No Alternative ExistsTM to their destruction of humane civil society, and its replacement with The Hunger Games.

The fact remains that any push for independence on the part of Scotland, will become a seriously dirty propaganda knife fight the moment the Tories think it's likely to free 5 million people from their evil clutches, and worse still, provide a refuge for the rest of us to run to once the Tories start going hyper-Norsefire. The entire Tory programme is aimed at stamping the plebs into subjugation, with no possibility of escape, and the moment an escape from their insidious fascist vision of the future presents itself, they'll do anything to destroy it. I hold the view that they'll even fabricate excuses to start a war with an independent Scotland if it's too successful at trashing Tory myths. There is no calumny, no venality, no pure evil that the current Tories will leave untouched in pursuit of their return to mediaeval plutocracy, and I see it as perfectly proper to warn the Scots of this, not least because I might need them to save what's left of my life once the Tories show their true nature in an unbridled manner.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
Moderator
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 21032
Age: 55
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1054  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 26, 2017 11:46 am

That is a problem but by creating a new currency would you solve anything? I dont think so. Staying with the pound is not an option. Anyway by the time the referendum comes what state will the pound be in? The Scots will probably be glad to out of sterling.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 37906
Age: 68
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1055  Postby Sendraks » Apr 26, 2017 11:57 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:That is a problem but by creating a new currency would you solve anything?


Well you'd undermine the Daily Heil's anti-euro fearmongering for a start. Of course there would be different fearmongering but, it would be new territory for the Heil to get into.

Scot Dutchy wrote:Anyway by the time the referendum comes what state will the pound be in? The Scots will probably be glad to out of sterling.

This is definitely worth keeping in mind. If the Euro is clearly a financially better option post Brexit (which is the safe bet), then the Scots would be mad not to take that option. And recent voting trends suggest that the Scots are decidedly less mad than the little England crowd.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 13643
Age: 101
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1056  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 26, 2017 12:21 pm

I just think that any independent Scots Pound would be so much under attack by big money tories what would it be worth?
By stepping into the Euro they would get the armour that Wail would find pretty impenetrable.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 37906
Age: 68
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1057  Postby Sendraks » Apr 26, 2017 12:32 pm

I agree that stepping into the Euro is the stable financial option, but it has already been set out quite clearly as to why it is the politically risky option right now. Post Brexit, probably a different story altogether as not even the Daily Heil could successfully spin the dangers of the Euro against a failing pound.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 13643
Age: 101
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1058  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 26, 2017 12:36 pm

Agreed.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 37906
Age: 68
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1059  Postby Byron » Apr 26, 2017 8:39 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Of course Byron keeps going on about the EEA as if that is an answer. It is neither one thing or the other. A halfway house going no where. The countries in it are exceptional and the UK is not which is the major problem. The illusion being that the UK is something which it is not.

I go on about the EEA 'cause, within the constraints of Brexit, it's the only way to save the UK's service-based economy from ruination. It's not an ideal option. It is the best available answer to the mess caused by Brexit.

Zerne, if your callsign's now foxtrot oscar, not much more to be said on this. I will note that transition to an independent currency can be rapid -- Poland moved from state socialism to a convertible złoty in a matter of months -- and certainly something that Scotland could accomplish in the two year or so transitional period to independence.
I don't believe in the no-win scenario.
Kirk, Enterprise

Ms. Lovelace © Ms. Padua, resident of 2D Goggles
User avatar
Byron
 
Posts: 12881
Male

Country: Albion
Print view this post

Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1060  Postby zerne » Apr 29, 2017 9:59 pm

Byron wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Of course Byron keeps going on about the EEA as if that is an answer. It is neither one thing or the other. A halfway house going no where. The countries in it are exceptional and the UK is not which is the major problem. The illusion being that the UK is something which it is not.

I go on about the EEA 'cause, within the constraints of Brexit, it's the only way to save the UK's service-based economy from ruination. It's not an ideal option. It is the best available answer to the mess caused by Brexit.


And for the last time; Article 50 is not a way to get EEA, EFTA, Custom's Union or anything else. It's a way to exit the EU and all that entails.

Byron wrote:Zerne, if your callsign's now foxtrot oscar, not much more to be said on this. I will note that transition to an independent currency can be rapid -- Poland moved from state socialism to a convertible złoty in a matter of months -- and certainly something that Scotland could accomplish in the two year or so transitional period to independence.


Poland didn't launch a new currency. It could've, if it had wanted to, because it had a central bank and had had that in place for some 40 years at that point along with its own currency the złoty.

Not even a remotely comparable situation to an iScotland.

And to clarify; i told ronmcd to fuck off because i tire of having halfwit responses full of hot air and nothing else.

The idea that in the face of scaremongering we should somehow abandon any facts or rational response is retarded. It's a fiscal and economic argument. You fight this crap and you fight it with facts. You don't win anything by conceding defeat.

I also think you guys vastly overestimate the power of the media in this debate, especially the tabloids.
User avatar
zerne
 
Posts: 439
Age: 43
Male

European Union (eur)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to News, Politics & Current Affairs

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest