Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1061  Postby ronmcd » Apr 29, 2017 10:26 pm

Every time I get out, they drag me back in ...


zerne wrote:
Byron wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Of course Byron keeps going on about the EEA as if that is an answer. It is neither one thing or the other. A halfway house going no where. The countries in it are exceptional and the UK is not which is the major problem. The illusion being that the UK is something which it is not.

I go on about the EEA 'cause, within the constraints of Brexit, it's the only way to save the UK's service-based economy from ruination. It's not an ideal option. It is the best available answer to the mess caused by Brexit.


And for the last time; Article 50 is not a way to get EEA, EFTA, Custom's Union or anything else. It's a way to exit the EU and all that entails.

Isn't the point that EEA EFTA, etc, are sensible ways to retain access to the market in similar way as being a full member, without being a full member or having to join the currency? Im not really sure what your point is here. If we leave the EU, as a result of article 50 you are right, we - Scotland - need to propose a plan. You propose rejoining the EU and *desperately trying to appear fluffy and compliant* (I may be overstating) by promising to join the currency, honest guv, please don't think we're taking it. I and Byron and Cali don't think it's necessary to go for the euro in that situation, for the reasons previously explained. Not that it's not viable, just that it isn't necessary to push it up front.

EEA EFTA etc is the next step potentially, rather than full EU membership, and has to follow article 50.

I'm stil not sure what your point was tbh. Article 50 comes first, but we need to propose the next step ...

zerne wrote:
And to clarify; i told ronmcd to fuck off because i tire of having halfwit responses full of hot air and nothing else.
:coffee:

zerne wrote:
The idea that in the face of scaremongering we should somehow abandon any facts or rational response is retarded.

Retarded. Nice. That isn't hot air and nothing else, I'll give you that. It's something else. It's the sort of thing that, were I a lesser man, would elicit a fuck you response. btw, the proposal to not pursue the euro is not "abandoning facts or rational response." Calling people who propose other options "retarded", that's not rational, or factual.

zerne wrote:I also think you guys vastly overestimate the power of the media in this debate, especially the tabloids.

The tabloids speak to their own echo chambers, to retain that audience. That imo is irrelevant. In Scotland, who are the voters swayed by? BBC. Sky. STV/ITV. What will be the narrative those organisations will be fed by the UK govt - and dutifully report - if we were to propose the euro, when (and this is key to the argument ... even if you think it's "retarded") we don't have to? You know what the narrative will be, or you should do.

For a current example, see the television media's acquiescence to the Theresa May "campaigning" narrative. Their journos online will make barbed or sarky comments about the Tory campaigning being fake, but they report it dutifully and give the PM's fake efforts top spot, for longer than labour never mind the other parties.

The papers aren't the problem.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1062  Postby Fallible » Apr 30, 2017 8:36 am

Noone called 'people' retarded, only a specific idea.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1063  Postby ronmcd » Apr 30, 2017 10:29 am

Fallible wrote:Noone called 'people' retarded, only a specific idea.

True, we are told the idea that myself, Byron, and Cali have all espoused, is 'retarded'.

Which is nice.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1064  Postby Calilasseia » Apr 30, 2017 12:36 pm

Though I launched this thread on the subject of Scottish independence, a related issue arising from the Brexit clusterfuck is the status of Northern Ireland. Well, it transpires that EU leaders have now approved a measure allowing Northern Ireland to become part of the EU if NI opts to become part of a united Ireland.

European Union leaders have unanimously approved tough guidelines for negotiations on Brexit, including a commitment to protecting Ireland’s interests and a guarantee that Northern Ireland could rejoin the EU as part of a united Ireland.

The leaders took just one minute to approve the guidelines at the special EU summit on Brexit in Brussels, before breaking into applause.

German chancellor Angela Merkel said she had never seen such unity of purpose at a European Council meeting.
The Taoiseach said he was pleased with the outcome, adding that the guidelines fully reflect Ireland’s concerns.

He described the statement about the future status of a united Ireland in the EU as hugely important.

The declaration regarding Ireland paves the way for Northern Ireland to automatically become part of the EU if it ever wished to join the Republic in a united Ireland.

Mr Kenny stressed, however, that the statement’s purpose was to ensure that Brexit “does not undermine any provision of the Good Friday Agreement”, rather than to move towards Irish unity.


In short, the EU recognises far better than the Torytards, the importance of keeping the Good Friday peace agreement running, and don't want the Torytards' Brexit wank fantasy wrecking it.

For tangentially related reasons, the EU is going to be far more accommodating to Nicola Sturgeon than to the venomous succubus pretending to be human known as Theresa May.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1065  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 30, 2017 12:57 pm

May will have to put on the brown trousers for the Brexit talks.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1066  Postby Calilasseia » Apr 30, 2017 2:54 pm

Once Merkel's finished with the succubus, she'll need more than brown trousers. Solid titanium nappies spring to mind as a requirement to hold in the resulting prolapse.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1067  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 30, 2017 3:10 pm

:lol:
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1068  Postby zerne » May 02, 2017 8:27 pm

Unbelievable, May and her cadre of Brexiteers appear to be entirely deluded about how the EU works and what Article 50 entails.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1069  Postby Calilasseia » May 02, 2017 8:46 pm

It's not unbelievable at all. It's deliberate on the part of the Tories. They aim to take a wrecking ball to anything that constitutes a properly constructed, decent civil society, because they want to return to the days of Dark Age plutocracy.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1070  Postby Byron » May 02, 2017 8:57 pm

The Maastricht bastards do want to crash out and trade on nonexistent "WTO rules," but that's 'cause they're ignorant as a cabbage in solitary confinement, unaware that no major economy trades on "WTO rules," and all are members of regional trading blocs and have international trade deals.

Tories with a bit of a clue (which isn't hard) realize that this won't work, but are deluded about their ability to sign a trade deal with Europe. Those who're clued up are shitting themselves enough to manure a county, and just waiting for the chance to marginalize the headbangers, and steer Britain towards the EFTA and EEA, or a Swiss-style equivalent.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1071  Postby Byron » May 02, 2017 9:00 pm

And must again appreciate the irony of a bunch of little Englanders worshiping the WTO, a supranational institution that can be every bit as intrusive as the EU, and, as global trade continues to harmonize, is set to become yet more so.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1072  Postby Calilasseia » May 02, 2017 9:33 pm

Byron wrote:And must again appreciate the irony of a bunch of little Englanders worshiping the WTO, a supranational institution that can be every bit as intrusive as the EU, and, as global trade continues to harmonize, is set to become yet more so.


But of course, the same Little Englanders don't regard rich, white American corporate vampires in the same way they do the Smelly Brown Foreign PeopleTM in Europe. Despite the fact that said vampires are far more likely to shit on the Little Englanders in the name pf profit. Funny also how you never see them complain about those Russian oligarchs buying up large stretches of London property as part of Putin's money laundering plans. Or anonymous Chinese operators in the same market. Which might have much to do with the manner in which the "Wogs begin at Calais" part of the Tory Party has been diverting attention therefrom.

Indeed, EU rules on transparency in high finance, almost certainly constitute a large reason the current Tories wanted out. Because they didn't want their own Panama Papers embarrassments being made public. Cameron, prior to his bailing out and leaving the mess for someone else to clean up, in the typical manner of the entitlement-riddled rich, tried to water down EU tax avoidance rules before he pissed off to become more cosy with his offshore funds. Every measure the Tories have pushed to date has been aimed at keeping sleazy corporate dealings as secret as possible, not least because a good few Tory MPs have their own fingers in that particular pie. Everything from revolving door "non-executive directorships" as a quid pro quo for smoothing the path of avarice, through in some cases to protecting big Party donors from legal sanction, with a few underlings pushed under the bus to provide the illusion of "justice" being served, in exchange for fat rewards, has been slithering away like the various claymation creepies from The Trap Door just waiting to see the light of day.

Once the full extent of Tory corruption finally strikes home with the electorate, and said electorate wakes up to who's really been screwing them, I wouldn't want to be a banker or a share trader in the City when all that resentment reaches flash point. It'll make the end of the Ceaucescus look like tea with the vicar. Quite a few of the poor who have been shafted over the past decade, won't spare an atom of pity once the pursuit of revenge becomes relentless, and the consensus among said demographic will be that the rich are getting their just desserts once the long knives are unsheathed.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1073  Postby Byron » May 02, 2017 9:43 pm

For good or ill (good, I'd say), England doesn't tend to run with revolutions and people's courts.

Yup, the reasons for headbanger hypocrisy are no secret, but useful to highlight them. I agree that driving them into the popular consciousness will be the key to stripping the neoliberal elite of their ill-gotten power, if not their gains, and certainly not their skins.

This process is already at work with the rise of right-wing populism: crucial now is refocusing those forces. The headbangers need to remember the timeless, pitiless copybook lesson: inciters of mobs can easily fall victim to what they've created.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1074  Postby Thommo » Oct 03, 2017 3:42 pm

From another thread:-

ronmcd wrote:Hint: despite what Ruth Davidson or May or the media have said, the elected Scottish Parliament has *already* voted to hold another referendum. People seem mistakenly to believe that was somehow undone by SNP losing some seats in a different UK wide election ...


Regarding what people remember or forget and are mistaken about, are you sure that's what they voted for? Or did they vote to open negotiations with the UK-wide parliament on permission to hold such a referendum?

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=10869
That the Parliament acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held that will give the people of Scotland a choice over the future direction and governance of their country at a time, and with a question and franchise, determined by the Scottish Parliament, which would most appropriately be between the autumn of 2018, when there is clarity over the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, and around the point at which the UK leaves the EU in spring 2019; believes that this gives people in Scotland a choice at a time when there is both the most information and most opportunity to act; further believes that 16 and 17-year-olds and EU citizens, who were excluded from the EU referendum, should be entitled to vote, and considers that this referendum is necessary given the Prime Minister’s decision to negotiate a hard exit from the EU, including leaving the single market, which conflicts with assurances given by the UK Government and prominent Leave campaigners, and which takes no account of the overwhelming Remain vote in Scotland.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1075  Postby GrahamH » Oct 03, 2017 4:09 pm

Thommo wrote:and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held


I take that to mean they will go through the cooperative process but seek to ensure an referendum can be held.

It doesn't seem like a meek 'we'll have a referendum if Westminster will let us'.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1076  Postby Thommo » Oct 03, 2017 4:11 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Thommo wrote:and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held


I take that to mean they will go through the cooperative process but seek to ensure an referendum can be held.

It doesn't seem like a meek 'we'll have a referendum if Westminster will let us'.


Yeah, alright whatever. It's not like I care.

I'll concede the point. Clearly there will be a referendum in autumn 2018. There's absolutely no way anyone could think otherwise.

My mistake, I should never have looked up and quoted in full what motion actually passed.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1077  Postby GrahamH » Oct 03, 2017 4:22 pm

Thommo wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Thommo wrote:and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held


I take that to mean they will go through the cooperative process but seek to ensure an referendum can be held.

It doesn't seem like a meek 'we'll have a referendum if Westminster will let us'.


Yeah, alright whatever. It's not like I care.

I'll concede the point. Clearly there will be a referendum in autumn 2018. There's absolutely no way anyone could think otherwise.


Isn't that a double standard? If Madrid can deny permission then stop a Catalan referendum why would it not be right, and why would it not happen, that Westminster might deny and permission and stop a Scottish referendum? Perhaps you think it would be right but couldn't happen here?
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1078  Postby ronmcd » Oct 03, 2017 4:39 pm

Thommo wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Thommo wrote:and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held


I take that to mean they will go through the cooperative process but seek to ensure an referendum can be held.

It doesn't seem like a meek 'we'll have a referendum if Westminster will let us'.


Yeah, alright whatever. It's not like I care.

I often revive zombie threads on topics I don't care about :smile:
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1079  Postby Thommo » Oct 03, 2017 4:41 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Thommo wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Thommo wrote:and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held


I take that to mean they will go through the cooperative process but seek to ensure an referendum can be held.

It doesn't seem like a meek 'we'll have a referendum if Westminster will let us'.


Yeah, alright whatever. It's not like I care.

I often revive zombie threads on topics I don't care about :smile:


Ahh, I was just moving your question to the thread it belongs in. If we're lucky, the thread will stay dead. :thumbup:
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1080  Postby ronmcd » Oct 03, 2017 4:43 pm

Thommo wrote:From another thread:-

ronmcd wrote:Hint: despite what Ruth Davidson or May or the media have said, the elected Scottish Parliament has *already* voted to hold another referendum. People seem mistakenly to believe that was somehow undone by SNP losing some seats in a different UK wide election ...


Regarding what people remember or forget and are mistaken about, are you sure that's what they voted for? Or did they vote to open negotiations with the UK-wide parliament on permission to hold such a referendum?


Hint: despite what Ruth Davidson or May or the media have said, the elected Scottish Parliament has *already* voted to hold another referendum (in so far as they are able based on recent precedent requiring a section 30 order).

:thumbup:
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