Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1081  Postby ronmcd » Oct 03, 2017 4:44 pm

Thommo wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Thommo wrote:
GrahamH wrote:

I take that to mean they will go through the cooperative process but seek to ensure an referendum can be held.

It doesn't seem like a meek 'we'll have a referendum if Westminster will let us'.


Yeah, alright whatever. It's not like I care.

I often revive zombie threads on topics I don't care about :smile:


Ahh, I was just moving your question to the thread it belongs in. If we're lucky, the thread will stay dead. :thumbup:

It's cool, we'll be returning to this thread topic soon, I predict :naughty2:
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1082  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 03, 2017 6:00 pm

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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1083  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 03, 2017 7:15 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Thommo wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Thommo wrote:and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held


I take that to mean they will go through the cooperative process but seek to ensure an referendum can be held.

It doesn't seem like a meek 'we'll have a referendum if Westminster will let us'.


Yeah, alright whatever. It's not like I care.

I'll concede the point. Clearly there will be a referendum in autumn 2018. There's absolutely no way anyone could think otherwise.


Isn't that a double standard? If Madrid can deny permission then stop a Catalan referendum why would it not be right, and why would it not happen, that Westminster might deny and permission and stop a Scottish referendum? Perhaps you think it would be right but couldn't happen here?


If the Tories pulled the same stunt over a Scottish referendum, as the Madrid government has pulled over the Catalan referendum, they'd pretty much guarantee that that Scots would want independence, and fast. Madrid has fucked up regally over the Catalan referendum, using bully-boy tactics to try and suppress it, and as a consequence, only made the Catalans want to stick the middle finger to Madrid with even more vigour.

If the Tories unleash the same sort of thuggery on the Scots, they'll not only make the Scots want independence with a vengeance, but stand a quantifiable chance of triggering a full-blown civil war. The Scots won't put up with that shit, and chances are they'll respond to it in, shall we say, Glaswegian fashion. :)

The Scots won't stand for Machiavellian manoeuvring on the part of the Tories either. That will be treated with the contempt that it deserves.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1084  Postby ronmcd » Oct 10, 2017 2:59 pm

Just a wee FYI:

SNP deputy leader Angus Robertson says “there WILL be a referendum on Scottish independence” before next Holyrood elections. That’s 2021.

https://twitter.com/PeterAdamSmith/stat ... 5065469952

What was it I said on the 3rd?

Hint: despite what Ruth Davidson or May or the media have said, the elected Scottish Parliament has *already* voted to hold another referendum (in so far as they are able based on recent precedent requiring a section 30 order).
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1085  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 10, 2017 3:02 pm

I'm not sure how he can know that, particularly as it's not even clear who the Prime Minister will be between now and then.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1086  Postby ronmcd » Oct 10, 2017 3:06 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:I'm not sure how he can know that, particularly as it's not even clear who the Prime Minister will be between now and then.

What has the UK PM got to do with it? He's talking about when the Scottish govt intend holding a referendum. Not .. if mum and dad let us out to play that day.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1088  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 10, 2017 3:38 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:I'm not sure how he can know that, particularly as it's not even clear who the Prime Minister will be between now and then.

What has the UK PM got to do with it? He's talking about when the Scottish govt intend holding a referendum. Not .. if mum and dad let us out to play that day.


S/he has everything to do with it, since constitutional matters are reserved. Perhaps there will be a PM who gives the nod; perhaps there won't be. Given Robertson doesn't know either way, he's not in a position to claim "there WILL be a referendum on Scottish independence" by 2021, unless he's referring to a Catalan style event.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1089  Postby ronmcd » Oct 10, 2017 3:46 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:I'm not sure how he can know that, particularly as it's not even clear who the Prime Minister will be between now and then.

What has the UK PM got to do with it? He's talking about when the Scottish govt intend holding a referendum. Not .. if mum and dad let us out to play that day.


S/he has everything to do with it, since constitutional matters are reserved.


We don't have a Guardia Civil in Scotland, so I don't think there will be any problem.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1090  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 10, 2017 3:50 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:I'm not sure how he can know that, particularly as it's not even clear who the Prime Minister will be between now and then.

What has the UK PM got to do with it? He's talking about when the Scottish govt intend holding a referendum. Not .. if mum and dad let us out to play that day.


S/he has everything to do with it, since constitutional matters are reserved.


We don't have a Guardia Civil in Scotland, so I don't think there will be any problem.


Well, as I said, it's possible he's referring to a Catalan style event. But it seems unlikely, and certainly less likely than that he was engaging in a bit of braggadocio.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1092  Postby ronmcd » Oct 10, 2017 3:58 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
Well, as I said, it's possible he's referring to a Catalan style event. But it seems unlikely, and certainly less likely than that he was engaging in a bit of braggadocio.

I think it's more likely he was referring to the practical reality of the situation.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1093  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 10, 2017 4:00 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Well, as I said, it's possible he's referring to a Catalan style event. But it seems unlikely, and certainly less likely than that he was engaging in a bit of braggadocio.

I think it's more likely he was referring to the practical reality of the situation.


Not sure what you mean.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1095  Postby ronmcd » Oct 10, 2017 4:04 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Well, as I said, it's possible he's referring to a Catalan style event. But it seems unlikely, and certainly less likely than that he was engaging in a bit of braggadocio.

I think it's more likely he was referring to the practical reality of the situation.


Not sure what you mean.

The reality is, a PR Parliament at Holyrood voted to hold a referendum. If the Scottish government intend holding a referendum on independence before the next Holyrood election, after the brexit deal is clear, it beggars belief that Westminster would prevent it. The precedent has been set, and it seems incredibly unlikely it would be opposed.

Christ, we even had Tories earlier this year saying 'we arent saying never, just not now, the people need to know what thee outcome of brexit is'. Well, we will find out. And then we will have a referendum.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1096  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 10, 2017 5:17 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Well, as I said, it's possible he's referring to a Catalan style event. But it seems unlikely, and certainly less likely than that he was engaging in a bit of braggadocio.

I think it's more likely he was referring to the practical reality of the situation.


Not sure what you mean.

The reality is, a PR Parliament at Holyrood voted to hold a referendum. If the Scottish government intend holding a referendum on independence before the next Holyrood election, after the brexit deal is clear, it beggars belief that Westminster would prevent it. The precedent has been set, and it seems incredibly unlikely it would be opposed.

Christ, we even had Tories earlier this year saying 'we arent saying never, just not now, the people need to know what thee outcome of brexit is'. Well, we will find out. And then we will have a referendum.


I'm not sure it does beggar belief. We've witnessed this year a British government decline the request for a referendum, and kick the issue into the long grass. Britain's departure from the EU being concluded will provide one less reason (or pretext) to deny another one, but it's perfectly plausible other reasons (or pretexts!) will be found next time. Once the step has been taken by one government to refuse permission, it becomes easier for a subsequent government to do the same. But we'll see.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1097  Postby ronmcd » Oct 10, 2017 6:11 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
I think it's more likely he was referring to the practical reality of the situation.


Not sure what you mean.

The reality is, a PR Parliament at Holyrood voted to hold a referendum. If the Scottish government intend holding a referendum on independence before the next Holyrood election, after the brexit deal is clear, it beggars belief that Westminster would prevent it. The precedent has been set, and it seems incredibly unlikely it would be opposed.

Christ, we even had Tories earlier this year saying 'we arent saying never, just not now, the people need to know what thee outcome of brexit is'. Well, we will find out. And then we will have a referendum.


I'm not sure it does beggar belief. We've witnessed this year a British government decline the request for a referendum, and kick the issue into the long grass. Britain's departure from the EU being concluded will provide one less reason (or pretext) to deny another one, but it's perfectly plausible other reasons (or pretexts!) will be found next time. Once the step has been taken by one government to refuse permission, it becomes easier for a subsequent government to do the same. But we'll see.

(I fear we've been over this before, but ...)
They didn't really, the Scottish govt said they would hold a referendum due to the Brexit result, as they said they would in their manifesto previously for Holyrood, should we vote to stay in but UK voted out overall. The UK govt huffed, and mumbled, and said This Is Not The Time. Which was nice, we agree. The time is after the brexit deal is clear, and horrifying.

What has changed since then is SNP lost some MP's in a GE that derailed their narrative. Sturgeon clearly accepted it was a disappointing result, if somewhat predictable. The unionist vote rallied around the Vote Ruth For No Surrender! party, and presented by all the unionist parties in Scotland SOLELY as a referendum on having a referendum - lol - we got a number of shit green bench automatons as unionist vote fodder. Brilliant.

But what has changed?
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1098  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 10, 2017 6:13 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Scottish Government to meet cost of EU nationals working in public services if fee imposed after Brexit

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/stat ... 5436472322


What "fee" is this?

Don't tell me the Tories are planning to surcharge EU nationals working in public service. This is fucking retarded. Though sadly, entirely in keeping with the rest of the Tories' retarded approach to government.

Let's see ... the Tories are already trying to push through their own version of the Enabling Act with their Brexit bill, they've already tried to put in place their own employment version of the Nuremberg Laws, and now this ... what are they going to do for an encore, I ask myself ...
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1099  Postby ronmcd » Oct 10, 2017 6:14 pm

To be clear - we hadn't actually *reached* the point where the UK govt could press the union suicide button, and deny/prevent a new referendum.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1100  Postby ronmcd » Oct 10, 2017 6:18 pm

Calilasseia wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Scottish Government to meet cost of EU nationals working in public services if fee imposed after Brexit

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/stat ... 5436472322


What "fee" is this?

Don't tell me the Tories are planning to surcharge EU nationals working in public service. This is fucking retarded. Though sadly, entirely in keeping with the rest of the Tories' retarded approach to government.

Let's see ... the Tories are already trying to push through their own version of the Enabling Act with their Brexit bill, they've already tried to put in place their own employment version of the Nuremberg Laws, and now this ... what are they going to do for an encore, I ask myself ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-41538311

Nicola Sturgeon says her government will pay a so-called "settled status" fee of any EU citizen working in the public sector in Scotland.

Prime Minister Theresa May has offered settled status to EU migrants who have lived in the UK for five years. However, the UK government has hinted that those applying for the status will have to pay a fee.
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