Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

Nicola Sturgeon At Bute House

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Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1  Postby Calilasseia » Mar 13, 2017 1:09 pm

Breaking news: Nicola Sturgeon announces she will be seeking a second Scottish Independence referendum in the wake of Brexit

The Scottish Government will move to hold a second referendum on independence from the United Kingdom, the country's First Minister has announced.

Nicola Sturgeon made the announcement in a speech on Monday morning at Bute House, as MPs in Westminster prepared to give Theresa May the power to trigger Article 50 and begin Brexit negotiations.

She said the UK Government had "not moved even an inch in pursuit of compromise and agreement" with the Scottish Government over Brexit and that even a good deal would be "significantly inferior" to the status quo.

"If Scotland can be ignored on an issue as important as the EU and the single market then it is clear that our voice can be ignored at any time and on any issue," she said.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#2  Postby TheMidnightBarber » Mar 13, 2017 1:15 pm

The solution to the economic uncertainty of Brexit is to create ten-fold the uncertainty with Scottish independence.

Also, I think what we all need is another fucking referendum
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#3  Postby Sendraks » Mar 13, 2017 1:22 pm

TheMidnightBarber wrote:The solution to the economic uncertainty of Brexit is to create ten-fold the uncertainty with Scottish independence.


Is that uncertainty worse than the certainty of knowing Westminster will just ignore you? I would argue that the uncertainty is preferable.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#4  Postby TheMidnightBarber » Mar 13, 2017 1:24 pm

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/p ... -1-4359018

The poll from last months show only 27% of people support a second referendum.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#5  Postby TheMidnightBarber » Mar 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Sendraks wrote:Is that uncertainty worse than the certainty of knowing Westminster will just ignore you? I would argue that the uncertainty is preferable.


The SNP's position is not realistic. The UK govt will not be able to negotiate two seperate Brexits, one for the UK and one for Scotland. The SNP are following their usual wedge strategy, trying at every turn to form some sort of grievance.

The options for Scotland are: leave the EU but remain in the UK (and it's more lucrative single market), or Leave the EU and the UK and then attempt to join the EU at a later date. This will mean committing to join the Euro and facing an insanely high fiscal deficit
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#6  Postby Sendraks » Mar 13, 2017 1:28 pm

TheMidnightBarber wrote:http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-support-for-indyref2-slips-amid-brexit-wrangling-1-4359018

The poll from last months show only 27% of people support a second referendum whilst brexit talks are underway.


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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#7  Postby TheMidnightBarber » Mar 13, 2017 1:31 pm

F.I.F.Y


In the context what I said was fine.

What's under discussion is a second referendum during the brexit talks, that's what I was referring to and that's what the poll refers to. Nice try at a "gotcha" though.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#8  Postby nunnington » Mar 13, 2017 1:53 pm

The Scottish government has to go for it now. A 'differential agreement' will never be accepted by May, who would be clobbered by the right-wing headbangers, if she accepted it.

If not now, when? Brexit negotiations will probably take ten years, fuck that.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#9  Postby mrjonno » Mar 13, 2017 2:10 pm

TheMidnightBarber wrote:
Sendraks wrote:Is that uncertainty worse than the certainty of knowing Westminster will just ignore you? I would argue that the uncertainty is preferable.


The SNP's position is not realistic. The UK govt will not be able to negotiate two seperate Brexits, one for the UK and one for Scotland. The SNP are following their usual wedge strategy, trying at every turn to form some sort of grievance.

The options for Scotland are: leave the EU but remain in the UK (and it's more lucrative single market), or Leave the EU and the UK and then attempt to join the EU at a later date. This will mean committing to join the Euro and facing an insanely high fiscal deficit



I think its brilliant it will completely fuck up the UK Brexit strategy even if they don't go independent. Scotland decision is whether it thinks the UK future is more bright than the EU's. Both have their problems but the EU isn't generally run by far right nationalists (yet).
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#10  Postby Sendraks » Mar 13, 2017 2:35 pm

TheMidnightBarber wrote:
In the context what I said was fine.

Not it wasn't.

TheMidnightBarber wrote:What's under discussion is a second referendum during the brexit talks, that's what I was referring to and that's what the poll refers to.

Interesting because the article clearly states that the referendum will take place after the terms of Brexit are known.

TheMidnightBarber wrote:Nice try at a "gotcha" though.

No "try" about it.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#11  Postby ronmcd » Mar 13, 2017 2:59 pm

TheMidnightBarber wrote:The solution to the economic uncertainty of Brexit is to create ten-fold the uncertainty with Scottish independence.

Also, I think what we all need is another fucking referendum

Ahahahahaha.

Sorry.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#12  Postby ronmcd » Mar 13, 2017 3:02 pm

TheMidnightBarber wrote:http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-support-for-indyref2-slips-amid-brexit-wrangling-1-4359018

The poll from last months show only 27% of people support a second referendum.

See, that there? Those words?

only 27% of people support a second referendum


That's what we call, in the technical jargon, a porkie.

Support for IndyRef2 to be held while Brexit talks are on-going with Brussels has fallen from 43 per cent in June last year, to 27 per cent in January 2017.


Meanwhile, opposition to a second referendum in the next few years has risen from 40 per cent to 50 per cent in the same period, while those supporting another vote after Brexit negotiations are complete has risen from 17 per cent to 23 per cent.


That's ... 27% + 23%

What's that total, again?
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#13  Postby ronmcd » Mar 13, 2017 3:04 pm

Some useful background info....


A reminder that EU officials were already discussing how to fast-track iScotland's entry to the EU last month.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/eu-o ... ndependent?


Another reminder that Spanish politicians are confused when you tell them people here think they'll block Scotland.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/thes ... land-joini?

https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/8 ... 2685115392
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#14  Postby ronmcd » Mar 13, 2017 3:06 pm

TheMidnightBarber wrote:
F.I.F.Y


In the context what I said was fine.

What's under discussion is a second referendum during the brexit talks, that's what I was referring to and that's what the poll refers to. Nice try at a "gotcha" though.

Nice try indeed, at telling the truth.

I would say you maybe got the wrong end of the stick, re that poll, but I am 100% sure you didn't, and in fact already KNEW the total was actually 50%.

Which is odd, no?
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#15  Postby ronmcd » Mar 13, 2017 3:09 pm

TheMidnightBarber wrote:
The options for Scotland are: leave the EU but remain in the UK (and it's more lucrative single market), or Leave the EU and the UK and then attempt to join the EU at a later date. This will mean committing to join the Euro and facing an insanely high fiscal deficit

1. If UK think we (UK) will be able to trade freely with EU, and the rest of the world come to that, why would we (UK) not trade freely with Scotland (in or out EU)? Or is that a campaign tactic.

2. Who says we (Scotland) will ever be outside EU, if we vote for independence before UK leaves?

3. Commit in treaty to join euro, sure, forced to actually join? No. No mechanism to do it, and no desire on the part of EU and euro countries to force others to join.

This is great, keep em coming.


(edited for incompetent quoting)
Last edited by ronmcd on Mar 13, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#16  Postby ronmcd » Mar 13, 2017 3:10 pm

Can I just point out the glaringly obvious? To prevent a Scottish referendum, Theresa May just has to decide to include the idea of a differenciated deal for Scotland in the UK negotiations.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#17  Postby Sendraks » Mar 13, 2017 3:14 pm

ronmcd wrote:
TheMidnightBarber wrote:
The options for Scotland are: leave the EU but remain in the UK (and it's more lucrative single market), or Leave the EU and the UK and then attempt to join the EU at a later date. This will mean committing to join the Euro and facing an insanely high fiscal deficit

1. If UK think we (UK) will be able to trade freely with EU, and the rest of the world come to that, why would we (UK) not trade freely with Scotland (in or out EU)? Or is that a campaign tactic.

2. Who says we (Scotland) will ever be outside EU, if we vote for independence before UK leaves?

3. Commit in treaty to join euro, sure, forced to actually join? No. No mechanism to do it, and no desire on the part of EU and euro countries to force others to join.

This is great, keep em coming.


F.I.F.Y - your quote tags were wrong.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#18  Postby ronmcd » Mar 13, 2017 3:19 pm

Sendraks wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
TheMidnightBarber wrote:
The options for Scotland are: leave the EU but remain in the UK (and it's more lucrative single market), or Leave the EU and the UK and then attempt to join the EU at a later date. This will mean committing to join the Euro and facing an insanely high fiscal deficit

1. If UK think we (UK) will be able to trade freely with EU, and the rest of the world come to that, why would we (UK) not trade freely with Scotland (in or out EU)? Or is that a campaign tactic.

2. Who says we (Scotland) will ever be outside EU, if we vote for independence before UK leaves?

3. Commit in treaty to join euro, sure, forced to actually join? No. No mechanism to do it, and no desire on the part of EU and euro countries to force others to join.

This is great, keep em coming.


F.I.F.Y - your quote tags were wrong.

:shock: how the hell did I do that? Oh, I see, incompetent editing on my part :smile: I'll go back and change it
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#19  Postby ronmcd » Mar 13, 2017 3:21 pm

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli

Lots of the usual confusion about independent Scotland and EU:

1) In terms of process, Scotland would need to apply to become an EU member

2) But Scotland meets most of the criteria. Have yet to meet one official/gov’t that doesn’t think Scotland would go through process fast

3) There is a question of interim: how can some argue UK can get a transitional deal, but Scotland can’t (when latter's would be simpler)?

4) Finally, I wouldn’t underestimate the amount of goodwill there is in EU towards Scotland/Sturgeon
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#20  Postby ronmcd » Mar 13, 2017 3:23 pm

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/stat ... 3730554885
I said very clearly that's not what I intended. I want informed choice when we have clarity on Brexit - based on PM's own timetable.

Laura Kuenssberg:
Sources say Sturgeon asking Scots to 'vote blind' before Brexit deal is done


:thumbup:
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