Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1101  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 10, 2017 7:28 pm

Ah ... becomes a little clearer now. I thought the Tories were going to levy a continuous surcharge, though perhaps I shouldn't give them ideas they can't come up with themselves ...
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1102  Postby electricwhiteboy » Oct 11, 2017 10:48 am

Calilasseia wrote:Ah ... becomes a little clearer now. I thought the Tories were going to levy a continuous surcharge, though perhaps I shouldn't give them ideas they can't come up with themselves ...


I think the EU are on to this, the admin fee to become a citizen is over a grand for each adult and just under for each child. There have been some serious hints that this is excessive and shouldn't be further inflated.

My wife is quite pleased to be exempt from this cost, but is kind of suspicious of all the lovebombing from the SNP. It's a smart tactic for appealing to immigrants from the EU in England. Move to Scotland and save a grand, now you're here care to vote for Indi so we can get back in the EU?
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1105  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 11, 2017 1:01 pm

:lol:

WTF

Remember the EU have promised to help Scotland.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1106  Postby Sendraks » Oct 11, 2017 1:09 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Remember the EU have promised to help Scotland.


Only if they gain independence through proper legal channels and not via any sort of unilateral declaration. Spain will block Scotland from joining the EU if it goes down that route.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1107  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 11, 2017 1:17 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Remember the EU have promised to help Scotland.


Only if they gain independence through proper legal channels and not via any sort of unilateral declaration. Spain will block Scotland from joining the EU if it goes down that route.


Spain owes the EU one over Catalan. I dont think Spain will do anything. Catalan is a province which makes it internal. Scotland is a country.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1108  Postby electricwhiteboy » Oct 11, 2017 1:25 pm

ronmcd wrote:That doesn't sound suspicious, it sounds reasonable.


Aye. It's a pretty sound plan. Having to pay to stay in the country would turn off a lot of voters from voting to leave later on.

The wife feels like the SNP have handed us a £1K bribe to stay in Scotland, rather than cut and run for Ireland. I understand her cynicism, but feel it's more like they had our backs which is a really weird feeling to have about a politician.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1109  Postby Tracer Tong » Nov 10, 2017 2:48 pm

Meanwhile...

Nicola Sturgeon questions Alex Salmond's choice of Russian TV channel - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-41941359

If it were April, I might be fooled.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1110  Postby ronmcd » Nov 11, 2017 9:38 am

Must say, I'm LOVING the manufactured outrage here in Scotland (and Andrew Neil's twitter feed) over an ex Politician doing a show on RT. Hilarious.

And yes, Sturgeon likely secretly wishes Eck would just retire quietly to his local bookmakers, but knows it won't happen.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1111  Postby Tracer Tong » Nov 11, 2017 8:31 pm

I thought Massie's piece in the Spectator was somewhat exaggerated, but going from FM of Scotland to doing a chat show for Pravda Today is a bit much.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1112  Postby ronmcd » Nov 11, 2017 9:47 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:I thought Massie's piece in the Spectator was somewhat exaggerated, but going from FM of Scotland to doing a chat show for Pravda Today is a bit much.

Doing a chat show for his own media company, touted to various media but RT presumably the only one to offer to show it. He claims complete editorial control, rather than being employed by RT.

More amusing is the Scottish print media losing their minds over this, claiming he's disgracing his party, the country, etc. But when all the other current MPs and MSPs are on RT, as they are routinely ... it's okay apparently.

:crazy:
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1113  Postby Tracer Tong » Nov 11, 2017 9:54 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:I thought Massie's piece in the Spectator was somewhat exaggerated, but going from FM of Scotland to doing a chat show for Pravda Today is a bit much.

Doing a chat show for his own media company, touted to various media but RT presumably the only one to offer to show it. He claims complete editorial control, rather than being employed by RT.


I'm sure that claim is true: he probably will retain control, though it will be an unacknowledged rule that he isn't to invite guests especially critical of Russia. But, as Massie pointed out, this is about PT looking to bulk up its legitimacy among Western audiences. I think Salmond is clever enough to realise this, but perhaps he thinks he'll have the last laugh.


ronmcd wrote:
More amusing is the Scottish print media losing their minds over this, claiming he's disgracing his party, the country, etc. But when all the other current MPs and MSPs are on RT, as they are routinely ... it's okay apparently.
:crazy:


Well, that's politics for yah.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1114  Postby Macdoc » Nov 12, 2017 2:23 am

. Catalan is a province which makes it internal. Scotland is a country.


Catalonia is an autonomous region( or was ) of Spain with their own language and the culture pre-dates Spain.
They are as much a "country" as Scotland is.
http://www.languedoc-france.info/190305_catalan.htm

Catalonia and Ireland are often paired/compared in their struggles for independence from an unwanted and at times oppressive "partner". Parts of Southern France are also historically Catalan and oppressed as a culture by France.
https://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/docu ... i5/i5.html

I's like to see both Scotland and Catalonia independent people's in reality to chart their own course. In theory EU should be able to accommodate that in its structure.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1115  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 12, 2017 11:19 am

Macdoc wrote:
. Catalan is a province which makes it internal. Scotland is a country.


Catalonia is an autonomous region( or was ) of Spain with their own language and the culture pre-dates Spain.
They are as much a "country" as Scotland is.
http://www.languedoc-france.info/190305_catalan.htm

Catalonia and Ireland are often paired/compared in their struggles for independence from an unwanted and at times oppressive "partner". Parts of Southern France are also historically Catalan and oppressed as a culture by France.
https://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/docu ... i5/i5.html

I's like to see both Scotland and Catalonia independent people's in reality to chart their own course. In theory EU should be able to accommodate that in its structure.


Never mind. Once again cherry picking reports. If you accept Catalan is a country because of culture then stand back for all the other claims.

This region of France has just as much claim as Catalan; Occitanie. Has its own language and culture. Was an autonomous region and has strong nationalist support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitanie or Baskenland https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basken

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All regions were oppressed one time or another. The province of Utrecht here has the same claim for years. It was an archbishopric long before the "Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden" existed.

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Europe is full of regions. It is not the EU's problem.

Scotland was a country that was united not taken over or oppressed.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1116  Postby aban57 » Nov 12, 2017 11:22 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:

This region of France has just as much claim as Catalan; Occitanie. Has its own language and culture. Was an autonomous region and has strong nationalist support.


And that language is spoken today by at least 22 people. Maybe 23. I grew up in that area, and I still fail to see what our "culture" is that is different from the French one.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1117  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 12, 2017 11:29 am

aban57 wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:

This region of France has just as much claim as Catalan; Occitanie. Has its own language and culture. Was an autonomous region and has strong nationalist support.


And that language is spoken today by at least 22 people. Maybe 23. I grew up in that area, and I still fail to see what our "culture" is that is different from the French one.


No? I went to folk feast there once. Great fun was had by all and very nationalistic. It was claimed that a few hundred spoke the language. I suppose you are talking about 'native' speakers which a difficult definition everywhere?

In Ireland for instance nobody really knows who is a native Irish speaker. Everyone is taught it at school but who uses it afterwards is unknown. Civil servants have to be bi-lingual.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1118  Postby aban57 » Nov 12, 2017 11:34 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
aban57 wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:

This region of France has just as much claim as Catalan; Occitanie. Has its own language and culture. Was an autonomous region and has strong nationalist support.


And that language is spoken today by at least 22 people. Maybe 23. I grew up in that area, and I still fail to see what our "culture" is that is different from the French one.


No? I went to folk feast there once. Great fun was had by all and very nationalistic. It was claimed that a few hundred spoke the language. I suppose you are talking about 'native' speakers which a difficult definition everywhere?

In Ireland for instance nobody really knows who is a native Irish speaker. Everyone is taught it at school but who uses it afterwards is unknown. Civil servants have to be bi-lingual.


22 was a slight exageration. You can learn occitan in a few schools, but no one speaks it anymore anyway. And I never heard of anyone considering Occitanie as a country. But maybe I didn't meet the right people.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1119  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 12, 2017 11:44 am

aban57 wrote:22 was a slight exageration. You can learn occitan in a few schools, but no one speaks it anymore anyway. And I never heard of anyone considering Occitanie as a country. But maybe I didn't meet the right people.


This was back in the 80's when there was a swell of Occitanian nationalism similar to Catalonia today. It probably has died like the Catalans will.
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Re: Second Scottish Independence Referendum Announced

#1120  Postby ronmcd » Nov 12, 2017 12:24 pm

I think we are missing the point with respect to autonomous regions, former countries, states, etc. For example:

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Europe is full of regions. It is not the EU's problem.


Those other regions do not have a dispute between their own government and their national government over their ability to *choose* by holding a referendum. Presumably the demand for independence amongst most "regions" is small, and without the mechanism to pursue it through democratic means even if there were.

Catalonia is different *because* it has/had a government, democratically elected, which supported independence, and wanted to put it to the test in a referendum. This is being denied to them, and the elected leaders - and some unelected civic leaders - imprisoned. Imprisoned. For attempting to find out.

Yes. This absolutely should be the EU's problem. The decision over whether its right or wrong to choose independence isn't.
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