laklak wrote:I remember John McEnroe. You, madam, are no John McEnroe.

I found him pretty unedifying, but she's probably worse. Nick Kyrgios is pretty unpleasant to watch as well at times.

GrahamH wrote:

I'm With Stupid wrote:

Fallible wrote:Her complaint has also been upheld by the Tennis Association or whatever it's called, so I doubt she will apologise.

Has it? I don't really know how tennis is organised, but while the Women's Tennis Association came out in her defence, she was also fined $17k for her behaviour, which doesn't suggest that her complaint has been upheld by anyone that matters. I've heard of lots of anecdotal evidence of male players engaging in similar behaviour without much actual statistical evidence that would suggest a gender discrepancy.

The BBC article on the topic gives the following info:



As I said, I don't really watch tennis that much, but I've never seen another player rant for that long before, and certainly not after 2 prior offences.

That is an interesting graphic that article tends to support William's contention. But we would need to know how many code violations actually occurred as well as how they were dealt with establish if the coaching penalty was fair or not.

How does more penalties having been given to men support Williams's point?

I would caveat that we don't know whether men and women violate at the same rates.

Thommo wrote:
How does more penalties having been given to men support Williams's point?

I would caveat that we don't know whether men and women violate at the same rates.

AIUI on-court coaching is common but penalising it is not common and is not generally taken as a serious issue, but according to that particular chart two fines were applied to women and none to men.


As you say we would need to know the actual violations to conclude anything meaningful there bout rates of penalties.

Interesting. I didn't know that women had less sets in tennis (as I don't watch it). I'm guessing it's because at tge time the rule was made it was because they thought women can't go the distance?

I can't think of another sport which does that. Though in Ireland we do have a whole sport called camogie which is hurling lite for women.

Thommo wrote:

laklak wrote:I remember John McEnroe. You, madam, are no John McEnroe.

I found him pretty unedifying, but she's probably worse. Nick Kyrgios is pretty unpleasant to watch as well at times.

He was pretty cringe-worthy. Ans he did get called on it.

Animavore wrote:Interesting. I didn't know that women had less sets in tennis (as I don't watch it). I'm guessing it's because at tge time the rule was made it was because they thought women can't go the distance?

I can't think of another sport which does that. Though in Ireland we do have a whole sport called camogie which is hurling lite for women.

One that came to mind is Golf, but it seems I may be out of date regarding "ladies tee". I'm not a golfer.

Ladies can play any set of tees they want, and anyone - male, female, young, old, beginner, experienced - can play the "ladies tees" if they want. So the more appropriate way to refer to the forward tees is ... forward tees.

And calling them "ladies tees" discourages male golfers who should consider playing from the forward tees - such as beginners, juniors, short-hitting high-handicappers, older golfers, or anyone else who would have more fun and a better score playing from a skill-appropriate set of tees - from doing so.

But, alas, the term "ladies tees" is still very common.
https://www.thoughtco.com/ladies-tees-1564199

felltoearth wrote:

Thommo wrote:

laklak wrote:I remember John McEnroe. You, madam, are no John McEnroe.

I found him pretty unedifying, but she's probably worse. Nick Kyrgios is pretty unpleasant to watch as well at times.

He was pretty cringe-worthy. Ans he did get called on it.

He was awful at times. Watching that back, I think he's worse than Williams.

I do miss Ivan Lindl though. Man he was good.

The ITF has backed the umpire.

The International Tennis Federation has backed umpire Carlos Ramos in the row over his handling of the US Open final, saying he acted with “professionalism and integrity”.

“Mr Ramos’ decisions were in accordance with the relevant rules and were re-affirmed by the US Open’s decision to fine Serena Williams for the three offences. It is understandable that this high profile and regrettable incident should provoke debate. At the same time, it is important to remember that Mr Ramos undertook his duties as an official according to the relevant rule book and acted at all times with professionalism and integrity.”

Animavore wrote:Interesting. I didn't know that women had less sets in tennis (as I don't watch it). I'm guessing it's because at tge time the rule was made it was because they thought women can't go the distance?

I can't think of another sport which does that. Though in Ireland we do have a whole sport called camogie which is hurling lite for women.

Well they do it in other sports too. The 100m is only for men, it's 90 for women, y'know.

Women have only been allowed to run the marathon in athletics since the 80s, I think.

The one thing I do agree with here is that the rules banning coaching should be revoked. It happens so often now, that you're always going to get this kind of problem due to inconsistent application of the rules. And it's applied frequently and inconsistently precisely because the rule isn't really needed.

aban57 wrote:

Animavore wrote:Interesting. I didn't know that women had less sets in tennis (as I don't watch it). I'm guessing it's because at tge time the rule was made it was because they thought women can't go the distance?

I can't think of another sport which does that. Though in Ireland we do have a whole sport called camogie which is hurling lite for women.

Well they do it in other sports too. The 100m is only for men, it's 90 for women, y'know.

I think the women's javelin, shotput and discus may well be lighter.

Women also play netball instead of basketball, less contact. Softball instead of baseball, though both sexes play softball.
Equestrian events are just about the only sports where male and female compete equally, no distinction.
Even olympic shooting events have men's and women's teams. I can't see the need for that.

Thommo wrote:

laklak wrote:Has she played the race card yet?

She hasn't but others have on her behalf.

Honestly, I think this is just people getting carried away after the Alizé Cornet incident, which clearly was a sexist double standard.

You can always rely on the Guardian to play the race card.

"Serena Williams’s treatment shows how hard it is to be a black woman at work"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/serena-williams-black-woman-work-tennis-discrimination

Blackadder wrote:

Thommo wrote:

laklak wrote:Has she played the race card yet?

She hasn't but others have on her behalf.

Honestly, I think this is just people getting carried away after the Alizé Cornet incident, which clearly was a sexist double standard.

You can always rely on the Guardian to play the race card.

"Serena Williams’s treatment shows how hard it is to be a black woman at work"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/serena-williams-black-woman-work-tennis-discrimination

What's your point? That WIlliams has never faced racism or sexism in her career? That there is definitively no such bias in this case? That if it's in the Guardian it must be false?
Phrases like "play the race card" have worrying connotations.

Blackadder wrote:

Thommo wrote:

laklak wrote:Has she played the race card yet?

She hasn't but others have on her behalf.

Honestly, I think this is just people getting carried away after the Alizé Cornet incident, which clearly was a sexist double standard.

You can always rely on the Guardian to play the race card.

"Serena Williams’s treatment shows how hard it is to be a black woman at work"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/serena-williams-black-woman-work-tennis-discrimination

Yeah, that's a pretty awful article in my book. To pick one example, whilst I think there's some mileage in the suggestion that women are more prone to having anger dismissed as hysteria, it's completely moot in this case when Williams's anger wasn't dismissed as hysteria, despite her being (as indeed McEnroe was in the clip posted above) hysterical. And that's leaving aside a repeated criticism of playing the race card.

I read in the paper this morning that Ramos was paid the princely sum of £370 to do his job. And that's arguably not enough to have to endure a fifteen minute long tirade, including abuse, in his workplace. Let alone now being portrayed by one of the world's most powerful women as a bastion of sexism, that will undoubtedly see some fraction of her millions of followers hound him online and off.

GrahamH wrote:

Blackadder wrote:

Thommo wrote:

laklak wrote:Has she played the race card yet?

She hasn't but others have on her behalf.

Honestly, I think this is just people getting carried away after the Alizé Cornet incident, which clearly was a sexist double standard.

You can always rely on the Guardian to play the race card.

"Serena Williams’s treatment shows how hard it is to be a black woman at work"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/serena-williams-black-woman-work-tennis-discrimination

What's your point? That WIlliams has never faced racism or sexism in her career? That there is definitively no such bias in this case? That if it's in the Guardian it must be false?
Phrases like "play the race card" have worrying connotations.

My point is that the writer of that article makes a clear connection with the racism that black women encounter in the workplace (which I don’t doubt for a second) and the Serena Williams incident, in which there has been no evidence of racism from the umpire that I can see. Arguably he may be accused of sexism if he did not apply the same standards to male players (although that is also not proven). That’s another argument. Neither Serena nor anyone in her camp has claimed the incident was racist, unless I missed that news. But this Guardian writer feels at liberty to impugn the umpire with that accusation nonetheless, which is what I mean by playing the race card. It is irresponsible.