Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#361  Postby GrahamH » Sep 14, 2018 4:18 pm

PensivePenny wrote: when evidence is asked for, all kindsof shite is held up as evidence... when that is refuted, it's time to roll out the logical fallacy.


What evidence (or "shite" if you like) have you "refuted"? I've seen plenty of gainsaying and evasion from you but I wouldn't want to have missed your refutations! Can you point me to some of those?
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#362  Postby GrahamH » Sep 14, 2018 4:20 pm

PensivePenny wrote:Welcome to the forum :cheers:



We are a bit late for that, but OK, welcome to the forum :cheers:
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#363  Postby Teague » Sep 14, 2018 4:23 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Teague wrote:How would you know if you're a racists if you actually are but think you're not? How about years of conditioning and not ever being the victim of racism?


There are tests for that


Apparently, I have a Slight automatic preference for Thin People compared to Fat People. I'm not sure how accurate this is because they keep changing the sides you go on and my mind drifted at some point in the test where I made several mistakes.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/u ... tatest.jsp
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#364  Postby PensivePenny » Sep 14, 2018 4:23 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
All I'm saying is in the name of free speech and freedom of expression we should be careful not to over-reach with what we deem "racist." I'm open to the assertion that the cartoon is racist. I just haven't seen anything that would stand up in a rational court. I apologize for any distress this might cause some people.

No distress here, though I think when someone deploys arguments about how we can't determine if a drawing is racist unless the person making the drawing says so, and that you can't see a cloud that's shaped like a dick as a dick unless you want it to look like one, they shouldn't talk about what would stand up in rational court. I agree that we should be careful not to over-reach, and that such over-reach is in part the reason we find ourselves here, arguing about this in this way. But when you say you're open to an idea, you need to actually leave the possibility open, and I honestly don't see that here. The cartoonist declaring "I'm a racist and this is my racist picture!" being the only possibility sure doesn't sound like reasonable doubt to me.


First off, the assertion is that the Knight cartoon is racist. That is the only assertion I've argued for or against. I did comment about with regard to a confession being substantive evidence, but I did not say that it was the sole exclusive way to identify it. If I did, it was only due to poorly constructed sentences. I do think in the Knight case SPECIFICALLY, it will take a confession of intent to prove it (this is an opinion, not a fact). I say that because there is sufficient cause that his point was quite valid and relevant. Perhaps it's only a device from which to hide a white hood. I acknowledge that. Show me.

I don't think the cartoon is racist... but that is just an opinion.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#365  Postby felltoearth » Sep 14, 2018 4:27 pm

The cartoon may not be racist because the subject matter is debatably racist (i.e. is the call the result of racial bias or not) but the depictions of the two players are most certainly racist, and that is what is being argued.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#366  Postby PensivePenny » Sep 14, 2018 4:31 pm

felltoearth wrote:The cartoon may not be racist because the subject matter is debatably racist (i.e. is the call the result of racial bias or not) but the depictions of the two players are most certainly racist, and that is what is being argued.


So now the call was racist? I'm confused :scratch:

I thought the call was sexist and the cartoon depiction of Serena was racist?

I think there can be no convergence on this topic.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#367  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 14, 2018 4:31 pm

PensivePenny wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Knight could post a picture of a donut with a broken tennis racket, and you'd say it was a dead ringer. Cuz context! Not very impressive, but at least it tells everyone about intent.


At least this part is on topic! :thumbup:

The donut is an interesting concept. Had Serena been depicted as a donut, the cartoon would have been just as humorous, on point, timely and relevant. Had she been depicted as a cartoon donut, do you think the screams of "She's being dehumanized as having no more value than a giant angry vagina!" would be any less deafening? It's a moot point, granted.
Well thanks for making my point for me, at any rate.


Don't co-opt what I said into some fantasy about increasing the number of people who agree with you. You missed my point entirely,

I didn't say you agreed, I said you made my point. Unwittingly, apparently.

but I believe you already know that and are just trolling me. In the event that I'm wrong about that, I'll try to clarify... understanding is up to you, though. You have to be willing to meet half way. Are you?

If you can actually keep the conversation straight and avoid the sorts of ridiculous arguments you've employed so far, sure. Declaring that it's only me whose got the issue with understanding sure doesn't sound like an honest attempt at half way, though. But hey, go ahead.

No one is saying the image is an accurate likeness of her, and I disagree with the notion that it is a "caricature". It's a political cartoon with a representation of her, an 32x32 pixel icon. It could be anything... a donut. A black blob. A white blob. A pink or blue blob. It could be a blob on a stick, or a blob on a cob or a blob on a bob, it could be most any blob at all. The focal point is meant to be the action she is performing. Focusing on her face is like focusing on the poor perspective DaVinci employed on the road behind Mona Lisa.

That doesn't make any sense. Facial features are clearly being specifically exaggerated in this image, and that's what you see in a caricature. Caricatures aren't supposed to be accurate likenesses, they're supposed to exaggerate features specific to the person in order to make it more recognizable as them. It isn't just anything, it's clearly an attempt at a face, you're supposed to recognize the features and the expression. I don't think trying to hand-wave this away by saying it's all about the action is a strong argument, especially when the face is the issue in question. Nobody denies that she threw a fit, it's just not relevant.

Maybe Knight is a big racist. Maybe he's the Grand Dragon of Australia. Good on'ya. Show some convincing evidence beyond "hurt feelings" and I'll happily join your ranks. I've just seen none proffered.

I haven't argued that he's racist, and none of this has hurt my feelings. The "good will" you're offering is diffusing by the moment in your attempts to dismiss points with this sort of distracting nonsense. A person doesn't have to be racist, or have racist intent, to produce a work that comes across as racist. The reasons it comes across this way have been noted, and if you aren't convinced by them, then good on'ya. But the incredibly weak arguments you're offering for your view don't incline me to put much behind it.
Last edited by SafeAsMilk on Sep 14, 2018 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#368  Postby Teague » Sep 14, 2018 4:32 pm

Little to no automatic preference between White people and Black people.


Woot! :thumbup:
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#369  Postby felltoearth » Sep 14, 2018 4:38 pm

PensivePenny wrote:
felltoearth wrote:The cartoon may not be racist because the subject matter is debatably racist (i.e. is the call the result of racial bias or not) but the depictions of the two players are most certainly racist, and that is what is being argued.


So now the call was racist? I'm confused :scratch:

I thought the call was sexist and the cartoon depiction of Serena was racist?

I think there can be no convergence on this topic.

Did I say the call was racist?
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#370  Postby Teague » Sep 14, 2018 4:40 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
All I'm saying is in the name of free speech and freedom of expression we should be careful not to over-reach with what we deem "racist." I'm open to the assertion that the cartoon is racist. I just haven't seen anything that would stand up in a rational court. I apologize for any distress this might cause some people.

No distress here, though I think when someone deploys arguments about how we can't determine if a drawing is racist unless the person making the drawing says so, and that you can't see a cloud that's shaped like a dick as a dick unless you want it to look like one, they shouldn't talk about what would stand up in rational court. I agree that we should be careful not to over-reach, and that such over-reach is in part the reason we find ourselves here, arguing about this in this way. But when you say you're open to an idea, you need to actually leave the possibility open, and I honestly don't see that here. The cartoonist declaring "I'm a racist and this is my racist picture!" being the only possibility sure doesn't sound like reasonable doubt to me.


It's also entirely possible the umpire doesn't realise he suffers from unconscious bias nor the artist.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#371  Postby Fallible » Sep 14, 2018 4:43 pm

PensivePenny wrote:
Fallible wrote:
You know that personal attacks are against the FUA, right?


Yes, I do. It's a crime in search of a victim. Kinda like the cartoon in question.


It's not a crime at all. It's a rule. It's nothing to do with victims, just an attempt to encourage a basic level of discourse. I don't know why the need for histrionics. The cartoon isn't a crime either. Anyway, you personally attacking the members of the forum is unnecessary, and kind of makes it look like you've got nothing but wind and nyeh.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#372  Postby Teague » Sep 14, 2018 4:43 pm

felltoearth wrote:
Teague wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:

I agree with you. But do you think we could manage an honest consensus about which ones were personal and which were not? Or would it just further descend and divide the tribes to their respective colored corners? I'd like to think we could be objective about that, but I don't think it's possible here, unfortunately.


I think insulting someone based on their chosen career is a good start. There is other unnecessary name calling. I also think it’s offside calling Mike_L Racist. I think he is unwittingly (in every sense of the word) posting racist apologetics. I don’t think he’s a racist though and it is unproductive to label him has such.


Maybe, maybe not. How would you know if you're a racists if you actually are but think you're not? How about years of conditioning and not ever being the victim of racism?

Why is it that blacks have had the most hatred thrown at them? I don't think there's anything comparable to the N word, "Chinky" doesn't really cut it, I don't even know of any latino ones. I heard racist jokes when I was growing up that were aimed at black people who seemed to be the singled out race amongst all races. I don't know why that is but it's institutionalised more than people think.

That's why I asked the question, when is racism enough racism for a black person to put up with until they rightfully snap? I don't suffer from it so I wouldn't have the first clue about being a victim but some comments here about her "temper tantrum" perhaps don't really understand the pressures the minority races have as an extra burden.

Of course, she's also a woman so she has the double whammy of misogyny to deal with as well.


I don’t know how any of this has to do with anything I wrote. “I think Mike_L isn’t a racist” is obviously a very different statement form “I know Mike_L” isn’t a racist. Nothing here on this forum has shown him to be a Racist. Having uninformed opinions and incoherent arguments doesn’t make someone racist, as pointed out before in this thread.


Well I'm not saying he's a racist but how would you know whether he is or isn't or even think he is or isn't based on a few forum posts? I was adding in how you can be unconsciously biased against minorities - that it was more ingrained in people than we probably think.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#373  Postby PensivePenny » Sep 14, 2018 4:46 pm

SaM, If I thought you were being intellectually honest I would rebut, but as usual we conclude this dance the same as all the rest. Don't mistake "hand-waving" with the shooing of a cloud of gnats.

SafeAsMilk wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Knight could post a picture of a donut with a broken tennis racket, and you'd say it was a dead ringer. Cuz context! Not very impressive, but at least it tells everyone about intent.


At least this part is on topic! :thumbup:

The donut is an interesting concept. Had Serena been depicted as a donut, the cartoon would have been just as humorous, on point, timely and relevant. Had she been depicted as a cartoon donut, do you think the screams of "She's being dehumanized as having no more value than a giant angry vagina!" would be any less deafening? It's a moot point, granted.
Well thanks for making my point for me, at any rate.


Don't co-opt what I said into some fantasy about increasing the number of people who agree with you. You missed my point entirely,

I didn't say you agreed, I said you made my point. Unwittingly, apparently.

but I believe you already know that and are just trolling me. In the event that I'm wrong about that, I'll try to clarify... understanding is up to you, though. You have to be willing to meet half way. Are you?

If you can actually keep the conversation straight and avoid the sorts of ridiculous arguments you've employed so far, sure. Declaring that it's only me whose got the issue with understanding sure doesn't sound like an honest attempt at half way, though. But hey, go ahead.

No one is saying the image is an accurate likeness of her, and I disagree with the notion that it is a "caricature". It's a political cartoon with a representation of her, an 32x32 pixel icon. It could be anything... a donut. A black blob. A white blob. A pink or blue blob. It could be a blob on a stick, or a blob on a cob or a blob on a bob, it could be most any blob at all. The focal point is meant to be the action she is performing. Focusing on her face is like focusing on the poor perspective DaVinci employed on the road behind Mona Lisa.

That doesn't make any sense. Facial features are clearly being specifically exaggerated in this image, and that's what you see in a caricature. Caricatures aren't supposed to be accurate likenesses, they're supposed to exaggerate features specific to the person in order to make it more recognizable as them. It isn't just anything, it's clearly an attempt at a face, you're supposed to recognize the features and the expression. I don't think trying to hand-wave this away by saying it's all about the action is a strong argument, especially when the face is the issue in question. Nobody denies that she threw a fit, it's just not relevant.

Maybe Knight is a big racist. Maybe he's the Grand Dragon of Australia. Good on'ya. Show some convincing evidence beyond "hurt feelings" and I'll happily join your ranks. I've just seen none proffered.

I haven't argued that he's racist, and none of this has hurt my feelings. The "good will" you're offering is diffusing by the moment in your attempts to dismiss points with this sort of distracting nonsense. A person doesn't have to be racist, or have racist intent, to produce a work that comes across as racist. The reasons it comes across this way have been noted, and if you aren't convinced by them, then good on'ya. But the incredibly weak arguments you're offering for your view don't incline me to put much behind it.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#374  Postby PensivePenny » Sep 14, 2018 4:48 pm

felltoearth wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
felltoearth wrote:The cartoon may not be racist because the subject matter is debatably racist (i.e. is the call the result of racial bias or not) but the depictions of the two players are most certainly racist, and that is what is being argued.


So now the call was racist? I'm confused :scratch:

I thought the call was sexist and the cartoon depiction of Serena was racist?

I think there can be no convergence on this topic.

Did I say the call was racist?


Not directly, no, but I did frame that in a question. Your sentence was a little unclear to me.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#375  Postby Fallible » Sep 14, 2018 4:50 pm

PensivePenny wrote:
felltoearth wrote:It would be pretty awesome if people stopped getting personal in this thread. There’s been a lot of over the line shit spewed here and it is very disturbing to me.


I agree with you. But do you think we could manage an honest consensus about which ones were personal and which were not? Or would it just further descend and divide the tribes to their respective colored corners? I'd like to think we could be objective about that, but I don't think it's possible here, unfortunately.


What is it about here that makes you doubt it's possible? After all it was you who descended to personally attacking people, no one else that I can see. You keep making comments about this place being deficient or inadequate in some way. If you're not getting discourse of a level high enough to be acceptable to you, it's silly to choose to stay but constantly complain about it. Why don't you go somewhere else?
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#376  Postby PensivePenny » Sep 14, 2018 4:51 pm

Teague wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
All I'm saying is in the name of free speech and freedom of expression we should be careful not to over-reach with what we deem "racist." I'm open to the assertion that the cartoon is racist. I just haven't seen anything that would stand up in a rational court. I apologize for any distress this might cause some people.

No distress here, though I think when someone deploys arguments about how we can't determine if a drawing is racist unless the person making the drawing says so, and that you can't see a cloud that's shaped like a dick as a dick unless you want it to look like one, they shouldn't talk about what would stand up in rational court. I agree that we should be careful not to over-reach, and that such over-reach is in part the reason we find ourselves here, arguing about this in this way. But when you say you're open to an idea, you need to actually leave the possibility open, and I honestly don't see that here. The cartoonist declaring "I'm a racist and this is my racist picture!" being the only possibility sure doesn't sound like reasonable doubt to me.


It's also entirely possible the umpire doesn't realise he suffers from unconscious bias nor the artist.


Oh goodie, the "could be" game...

Could be the ump was paid to rig the game...

Could be he was jealous of her...

Could be he's secretly sleeping with Osaka...

Are you putting that forth as an argument, an opinion or a "necessary" comment?
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#377  Postby PensivePenny » Sep 14, 2018 4:53 pm

Fallible wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
Fallible wrote:
You know that personal attacks are against the FUA, right?


Yes, I do. It's a crime in search of a victim. Kinda like the cartoon in question.


It's not a crime at all. It's a rule. It's nothing to do with victims, just an attempt to encourage a basic level of discourse. I don't know why the need for histrionics. The cartoon isn't a crime either. Anyway, you personally attacking the members of the forum is unnecessary, and kind of makes it look like you've got nothing but wind and nyeh.


Sure, sure.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#378  Postby felltoearth » Sep 14, 2018 4:54 pm

Teague wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
Teague wrote:
felltoearth wrote:

I think insulting someone based on their chosen career is a good start. There is other unnecessary name calling. I also think it’s offside calling Mike_L Racist. I think he is unwittingly (in every sense of the word) posting racist apologetics. I don’t think he’s a racist though and it is unproductive to label him has such.


Maybe, maybe not. How would you know if you're a racists if you actually are but think you're not? How about years of conditioning and not ever being the victim of racism?

Why is it that blacks have had the most hatred thrown at them? I don't think there's anything comparable to the N word, "Chinky" doesn't really cut it, I don't even know of any latino ones. I heard racist jokes when I was growing up that were aimed at black people who seemed to be the singled out race amongst all races. I don't know why that is but it's institutionalised more than people think.

That's why I asked the question, when is racism enough racism for a black person to put up with until they rightfully snap? I don't suffer from it so I wouldn't have the first clue about being a victim but some comments here about her "temper tantrum" perhaps don't really understand the pressures the minority races have as an extra burden.

Of course, she's also a woman so she has the double whammy of misogyny to deal with as well.


I don’t know how any of this has to do with anything I wrote. “I think Mike_L isn’t a racist” is obviously a very different statement form “I know Mike_L” isn’t a racist. Nothing here on this forum has shown him to be a Racist. Having uninformed opinions and incoherent arguments doesn’t make someone racist, as pointed out before in this thread.


Well I'm not saying he's a racist but how would you know whether he is or isn't or even think he is or isn't based on a few forum posts? I was adding in how you can be unconsciously biased against minorities - that it was more ingrained in people than we probably think.


I think you need to re-read what I said. I am basically agreeing with you.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#379  Postby zulumoose » Sep 14, 2018 4:55 pm

GrahamH wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
All I'm saying is in the name of free speech and freedom of expression we should be careful not to over-reach with what we deem "racist." I'm open to the assertion that the cartoon is racist. I just haven't seen anything that would stand up in a rational court. I apologize for any distress this might cause some people.


That cuts both ways. We should be careful not to overreach with what we deem not racist. If it seems racist to someone they should be free to say so. Nobody is talking about legal redress in a court. There is obviously a different standard there. It would be absurd to suggest that people can't comment on social issues unless they meet the highest standards of evidence of guilt required in court.


Also, we should be careful not to take the ridiculous position of declaring something open to interpretation to be racist, not just as an opinion, but as an absolute declaration to the extent that anyone disagreeing in the slightest is also deemed to be a racist by default. Absurd position.
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Re: Serena Williams accuses referee of sexism

#380  Postby felltoearth » Sep 14, 2018 4:58 pm

PensivePenny wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
felltoearth wrote:The cartoon may not be racist because the subject matter is debatably racist (i.e. is the call the result of racial bias or not) but the depictions of the two players are most certainly racist, and that is what is being argued.


So now the call was racist? I'm confused :scratch:

I thought the call was sexist and the cartoon depiction of Serena was racist?

I think there can be no convergence on this topic.

Did I say the call was racist?


Not directly, no, but I did frame that in a question. Your sentence was a little unclear to me.


I'm not sure what's unclear, people have been debating whether the incident involved racism. It's happened in this very thread. What I am trying to do is separate the subject of the cartoon, which is the event and debatable, from the depiction the players therein which is obviously racist.
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