Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Can we have another chorus of "No one is saying it was intentional or malicious"?

You are wasting your time, Rachel.

It just isn't worth it.

Rumraket wrote:that was definitely not my intention

I'm sure it wasn't, as I am sure it isn't of many others.

But the truth is that this is simply not a female-friendly forum.

The sheer weight of the male/female membership numbers virtually guarantee that, and when that is combined with the numbers of males here who present with an anti-female bias, whether they acknowledge it within themselves or not, or even totally deny it even though it is obvious to others, then there is no chance of a fair hearing.

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Rumraket wrote:

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Rumraket wrote:We're pretty far from done.

You may be, Rum, but as far as I'm concerned, this is the end of the road.

Not only for this thread, but the whole forum.

I'm done.

Uhm, okay.

It isn't your fault, Rum. It's a combination of several things.

This idea of a 'death by a thousand cuts' not being the least of them.

Surely we can leave this thread alone then, and find other subjects on the forum worth participating in?

I guess it's a matter of personal interest, I actually rarely partake in threads here in the politics part of the forum. The threads always get like this, whether it's issues of Israel vs Palestine, left vs right wing economic policy, capitalism vs socialism, Iran's nuclear programme, Immigration and racial issues etc. etc. For some reason people loser their minds in this part of the forum.

Rumraket wrote:
Surely we can leave this thread alone then, and find other subjects on the forum worth participating in?

No.

Not with the people who clap and applaud the kind of thing that Kenny and Skinny post.

It just isn't possible.

They will be happy to have driven me away.

It's the climate that's the problem, not really the specific topics it presents it's self in the most obviously.

And it SUCKS because, and I think DD would agree with me, there are some amazing men on this forum. The vast majority of those contributing to this problem are doing so out of ignorance, not deliberate nastiness, and lots aren't contributing to the problem so much as tolerating it. I totally understand the reasoning behind that attitude but it doesn't work when you're one of the people these shitty attitudes are targeted at.

I came back to this forum because I am very fond of some of the posters (and the connections I have made here that I treasure most are predominantly with men.) I don't expect anyone to "rock the boat" in order to keep me around. I'm not any more special than anyone else. I can understand how, when you're not on the recieving end of the bullshit, it's easy to just ignore it. I'm not miffed with anyone doing this, just sad, knowing I'm going to miss some of them.

I don't have the option to stick my head in the sand unless I abandon my values and no online message board is worth my self-esteem. I've made that mistake with lots of the men in my life from my father to the last guy I dated. I love my dad but our relationship is entirely on my terms because, no, not even he is worth my self esteem! A forum where my values aren't taken seriously and I have to accept that my thoughts and feelings are without value REALLY isn't worth my emotional wellbeing.

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Acetone wrote:BECAUSE I FOUND OUT SHE STANDS FOR WIMMINZ RIGHTS!!!

There seems to be no place here on this forum for anyone who argues for women's rights, or even for their viewpoints to be heard, without scorn, derision, misrepresentation, and sheer bigotry.

So you can shove it.

Are you joking? There have been multiple threads where this has occurred. Where the vast majority of members agreed.

Somehow people not agreeing with what happened in this situation is fucking oppression of women's rights and discussion of those rights on the forum or something? So full of shit.

If anything YOU are trying to block the discussion by labelling everyone that doesn't agree as 'white knighters' and posting non-sense rhetoric, ignoring the actual content in posts, pretending to be oppressed etc. etc. etc..

I've yet to see any bigotry posted (except from Rachel when she called everyone white knights)... care to link to some examples? Or is asking you for that an example of harassment and me following you around (as I assume Rachel is talking about from the other thread where she has called out threads for blatant sexism).

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:This has actually gone from obnoxiousness to very personalised harassment, following posters and importing hostilities towards them from thread to thread. Good job, guys. You must be proud!

Oh, that's how it happened is it? That's what's occurring is it?

Rumraket wrote:

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Rumraket wrote:

Doubtdispelled wrote:
That's your view, and you're welcome to it.

You yourself may have a skewed picture of any other's reality due mainly to your gender. Who would guess?

Certainly not you.

And maybe you do due to yours? How do we find out?

You fail, Rum, because here we are talking about women's reality.

No, we are talking about reality, just reality. Does the shirt, in point of fact, symbolize something in particular?

How do we find out? How do you know what it symbolizes?

Doubtdispelled wrote: As it is affected by the kind of thing that is supposedly being discussed in this thread, i.e. sexualised images being presented in a serious environment. A skewed picture of reality with respect to what such a shirt symbolizes.

How does this have any effect on men's reality?

Last I checked we are part of the same reality.

Doubtdispelled wrote:Next.

We're pretty far from done.

And THAT is the issue.

Precisely.

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:It's the climate that's the problem, not really the specific topics it presents it's self in the most obviously.

And it SUCKS because, and I think DD would agree with me, there are some amazing men on this forum. The vast majority of those contributing to this problem are doing so out of ignorance, not deliberate nastiness, and lots aren't contributing to the problem so much as tolerating it. I totally understand the reasoning behind that attitude but it doesn't work when you're one of the people these shitty attitudes are targeted at.

Men on this forum are contributing to sexism. Because they don't agree about shirtgate? Post examples and outline exactly how a reasonable person should expect that to contribute to a poisoned atmosphere. Also, quite the fucking call out for someone crying persecution and 'harassment'.

I came back to this forum because I am very fond of some of the posters (and the connections I have made here that I treasure most are predominantly with men.) I don't expect anyone to "rock the boat" in order to keep me around. I'm not any more special than anyone else. I can understand how, when you're not on the recieving end of the bullshit, it's easy to just ignore it. I'm not miffed with anyone doing this, just sad, knowing I'm going to miss some of them.

You're right, it is pretty easy to get miffed when people are posting bullshit.

I don't have the option to stick my head in the sand unless I abandon my values and no online message board is worth my self-esteem. I've made that mistake with lots of the men in my life from my father to the last guy I dated. I love my dad but our relationship is entirely on my terms because, no, not even he is worth my self esteem! A forum where my values aren't taken seriously and I have to accept that my thoughts and feelings are without value REALLY isn't worth my emotional wellbeing.

Should probably take this to the feedback section. They're probably going to require links to specific examples though.

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Rumraket wrote:that was definitely not my intention

I'm sure it wasn't, as I am sure it isn't of many others.

But the truth is that this is simply not a female-friendly forum.

The sheer weight of the male/female membership numbers virtually guarantee that, and when that is combined with the numbers of males here who present with an anti-female bias, whether they acknowledge it within themselves or not, or even totally deny it even though it is obvious to others, then there is no chance of a fair hearing.

I disagree with that vehemently.

Acetone wrote:

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Acetone wrote:BECAUSE I FOUND OUT SHE STANDS FOR WIMMINZ RIGHTS!!!

There seems to be no place here on this forum for anyone who argues for women's rights, or even for their viewpoints to be heard, without scorn, derision, misrepresentation, and sheer bigotry.

So you can shove it.

Are you joking? There have been multiple threads where this has occurred. Where the vast majority of members agreed.

Somehow people not agreeing with what happened in this situation is fucking oppression of women's rights and discussion of those rights on the forum or something? So full of shit.

If anything YOU are trying to block the discussion by labelling everyone that doesn't agree as 'white knighters' and posting non-sense rhetoric, ignoring the actual content in posts, pretending to be oppressed etc. etc. etc..

I've yet to see any bigotry posted (except from Rachel when she called everyone white knights)... care to link to some examples? Or is asking you for that an example of harassment and me following you around (as I assume Rachel is talking about from the other thread where she has called out threads for blatant sexism).

Not much that I can add... You’ve hit the nail on the head! Good summation of what’s been taking place in this thread... over and over again.

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Rumraket wrote:
Surely we can leave this thread alone then, and find other subjects on the forum worth participating in?

No.

Not with the people who clap and applaud the kind of thing that Kenny and Skinny post.

It just isn't possible.

They will be happy to have driven me away.

This has nothing to do with you personally. This has to do with the topic and the issue which I maintain is something that is being blown out of proportion for reasons that have nothing to do with the shirt event and I resent this over-reaction in the extreme. It never should have been an issue, it's been turned into one by those who want to politicize it to the detriment of everyone involved.

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Rumraket wrote:
Surely we can leave this thread alone then, and find other subjects on the forum worth participating in?

No.

Not with the people who clap and applaud the kind of thing that Kenny and Skinny post.

It just isn't possible.

They will be happy to have driven me away.

Kenny and I have disagreed with you... nothing more, nothing less and now you’re saying that we and others... will be happy to see you driven away?

Is no one allowed a dissenting opinion in this thread?

Doubtdispelled wrote:
But the truth is that this is simply not a female-friendly forum

The sheer weight of the male/female membership numbers virtually guarantee that and when that is combined with
the numbers of males here who present with an anti-female bias whether they acknowledge it within themselves or
not or even totally deny it even though it is obvious to others then there is no chance of a fair hearing

The forum does not have a gender ratio policy whereby there has to be a certain percentage of female posters. Rightly so too because such a policy would be unworkable in practice. Though that would actually be the only way a gender balance could be guaranteed. So although you may be unhappy about the ratio of male and female posters here there is nothing that can be done about it unfortunately. Though I think that what is more important is the spirit of open debate which we practice here rather than the gender split of the membership. And indeed if such debate was routinely conducted in an atmosphere that was conducive to positive discourse then gender would not even be an issue

Everything posted here has to be in accordance with the FUA. That aside there are no restrictions on what can or cannot be debated and one of the topics that regularly comes up is feminism. But it cannot and indeed does not get a free pass any more than any other ideology because the forum exists to critically determine the validity of anything being debated. And there are no exceptions to this. No sacred cows since it is against the spirit of what Rat Skep is about. There is however a line that does not get crossed and that is where those expressing their opinions are being discussed instead of the opinions themselves. Now this can of course happen with any subject being debated but the principle is the same regardless. It is important therefore that you do not equate robust criticism of feminism which you believe in with ad hominems directed against you personally or other female posters here who happen to be feminists. It is important because one is perfectly acceptable and the other is not. So when you say that the male membership represents an anti female bias you need to be very specific about what that actually means

Your reference to anti female bias is a blanket statement that automatically assumes all female members are discriminated against yet this is evidently not so. The forum has strong female members such as Scarlett and Fallible who are just as tough as any of the male members here and so therefore do not conform to your intentional / unintentional stereotypical view of all the females here. Interestingly neither of them self identify as feminists so if your anti female bias is being referenced as part of a feminist narrative you should bear in mind that it does not represent all of the female members here

I would be sorry to see both yourself and Rachel go so I really hope that neither of you do. Now I cannot speak for others but I think the pair of you contribute much to the forum even if your opinions are not always welcomed. But that is true of all of us here. No one get a free pass. We all have to have our views subject to the rigours of critical scrutiny. It is what the forum exists for as I have already said. And yes it can get heavy from time to time. But I would much rather you stayed and be part of this wonderful community than leave and go elsewhere. This is for me the best rational forum on the web bar none and it would be a little bit less so if you or Rachel left. And so if either or both of you could find it in your hearts to stay then I for one would be very happy indeed. Though the final decision is of course yours and yours only

Skinny Puppy wrote:Is no one allowed a dissenting opinion in this thread?

Where was this stated?

Boyle wrote:

Skinny Puppy wrote:Is no one allowed a dissenting opinion in this thread?

Where was this stated?

Well, unless you want to be labelled a sexist, white knighting, atmosphere poisoning, bigot, who are trying to drive people away, which automatically appears to have come with any form of dissenting opinion it would seem to be the best option to have never said anything in this thread (aka have no dissenting opinion) and just allowed them to bitch till they were done bitching.

Skinny Puppy wrote:

Another nuanced and rational dissenting opinion. Well done. Perhaps another childish, mocking, satire - and maybe another period joke from kennyc - will make DD and Rachel feel more welcome and accept how wrong they've been.

Wtf is going on here?

Precambrian Rabbi wrote:

Skinny Puppy wrote:

Another nuanced and rational dissenting opinion. Well done. Perhaps another childish, mocking, satire - and maybe another period joke from kennyc - will make DD and Rachel feel more welcome and accept how wrong they've been.

Sorry, but we’ve all been there; done that and got the T-shirt... it didn’t work! I repeat... it simply didn’t work.

Regardless of what was said, how it was said etc. ad nauseam, it was taken as an affront and no dissention was allowed. Anti-arguments weren’t taken as just an opposing view, no, they were taken as an all-out assault.

Everyone here is free to state an opinion and to not have it taken as an attack on women... that’s out-and-out horseshit.

Read the thread if you haven’t already. It simply boggles the mind!

I didn’t break the fences... don’t ask me to mend them.

Oh, and my forehead slap... the answer, the very answer to the question asked was just 2 feet above that post, on my monitor.