Fallible wrote:Jesus Christ...I just had a CT scan free of charge...

Well, it’s not really free. We share the cost as a society though our giant all inclusive risk pool.

laklak wrote:For one thing, I do not believe a single thing that comes out of Bernie's mouth.

Then you don't believe ANY politician. None of them have been consistent like Sanders over the last 4 decades.

Here we go again. Please leave Sanders alone he is past his sell-by-date.

Macdoc wrote:Ouch - predators at play....on the US citizens...

“It’s the prices, stupid”
In 2003, a team of influential economists published a paper pointing out that prices are the key problem in American health care. It came with the title: “It’s the Prices, Stupid.”

good read
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... es-problem

and one reason we warn Canadian riders to NEVER EVER ride in the US with out health insurance cover for out of Canada.

Oh yes but you see, to change that thing there above someone is going to have to pay a bit more in taxes, and then you'd be ruining their life as they might have to buy the new mercedes just below the flagship model when it comes time to "upgrade" every 5 years. And we can't have that. No sir. You want affordable healthcare for everyone? You're a lazy millenial, or a bum, or a communist.

Teague wrote:

laklak wrote:For one thing, I do not believe a single thing that comes out of Bernie's mouth.

Then you don't believe ANY politician. None of them have been consistent like Sanders over the last 4 decades.

Lacking the capacity to reconsider one's failing positions over 40 or 50 years isn't something to be proud of.

You do know that most of Bernie's "failing positions", including single payer healthcare, have been successful in the countries that have implemented them, and are largely untried in the US?

Your use of "failing" as a perjorative echoes Trump's empty insults of those who dare point out his flaws.

Rumraket wrote:

Macdoc wrote:Ouch - predators at play....on the US citizens...

“It’s the prices, stupid”
In 2003, a team of influential economists published a paper pointing out that prices are the key problem in American health care. It came with the title: “It’s the Prices, Stupid.”

good read
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... es-problem

and one reason we warn Canadian riders to NEVER EVER ride in the US with out health insurance cover for out of Canada.

Oh yes but you see, to change that thing there above someone is going to have to pay a bit more in taxes, and then you'd be ruining their life as they might have to buy the new mercedes just below the flagship model when it comes time to "upgrade" every 5 years. And we can't have that. No sir. You want affordable healthcare for everyone? You're a lazy millenial, or a bum, or a communist.

But they are that high because when insurance companies came around they demanded hospitals give them massive discounts. Hospitals could not run efficiently if they went with those discounts and they'd suffer if they ceased working with the insurance company so the result is overinflated costs of healthcare.

You say the easiest fix would be to have the government cover the cost, but I say the more likely fix at the moment is to crack down on insurance company greed. Regulate them more. Allow hospitals to charge what something is worth and force insurance companies to have to cover the cost of it with no discount. That way instead of paying $75 for that meal I had to eat when I was forced to stay at the hospital, I am now paying $10 for that meal I had to eat when I was forced to stay at the hospital and insurance companies would cover that $10 instead.

Fix the bureaucracy and administrative bloat which is raising costs.

And before: single payer would fix it blah blah blah. I KNOW. But practicality > ideology.

OlivierK wrote:You do know that most of Bernie's "failing positions", including single payer healthcare, have been successful in the countries that have implemented them...

Really! Which country has tried to expand US Medicare to everyone in the country and succeeded? Bernie's plan isn't even close to single payer either. Not the way it stands now with ~20% deductibles and supplemental policies required.

Not liking Bernie's ridiculous plan and thinking that he is an ineffectual buffoon is not the same as being against single payer/universal health care.

Rumraket wrote:

Macdoc wrote:Ouch - predators at play....on the US citizens...

“It’s the prices, stupid”
In 2003, a team of influential economists published a paper pointing out that prices are the key problem in American health care. It came with the title: “It’s the Prices, Stupid.”

good read
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... es-problem

and one reason we warn Canadian riders to NEVER EVER ride in the US with out health insurance cover for out of Canada.

Oh yes but you see, to change that thing there above someone is going to have to pay a bit more in taxes, and then you'd be ruining their life as they might have to buy the new mercedes just below the flagship model when it comes time to "upgrade" every 5 years. And we can't have that. No sir. You want affordable healthcare for everyone? You're a lazy millenial, or a bum, or a communist.

The problem isn't the few rich people buying Mercedes, it's the poor, who have the numbers, buying into the idea that the rich should be getting Mercedes instead of helping them with their health.

Willie71 wrote:

Fallible wrote:Jesus Christ...I just had a CT scan free of charge...

Well, it’s not really free. We share the cost as a society though our giant all inclusive risk pool.

Yes, I understand free at the point of treatment systems.

Fallible wrote:

Willie71 wrote:

Fallible wrote:Jesus Christ...I just had a CT scan free of charge...

Well, it’s not really free. We share the cost as a society though our giant all inclusive risk pool.

Yes, I understand free at the point of treatment systems.

I know. I was countering the rhetoric of “free stuff” that ant universal healthcare people think is clever.

Oldskeptic wrote:

OlivierK wrote:You do know that most of Bernie's "failing positions", including single payer healthcare, have been successful in the countries that have implemented them...

Really! Which country has tried to expand US Medicare to everyone in the country and succeeded? Bernie's plan isn't even close to single payer either. Not the way it stands now with ~20% deductibles and supplemental policies required.

Not liking Bernie's ridiculous plan and thinking that he is an ineffectual buffoon is not the same as being against single payer/universal health care.

Still butt hurt over backing the worst candidate in American history? Get over it already.

Oldskeptic wrote:

Teague wrote:

laklak wrote:For one thing, I do not believe a single thing that comes out of Bernie's mouth.

Then you don't believe ANY politician. None of them have been consistent like Sanders over the last 4 decades.

Lacking the capacity to reconsider one's failing positions over 40 or 50 years isn't something to be proud of.

I'll break my embargo only to point out the stupidity of your post and the irony. 7330 posts and look who's talking!

willhud9 wrote:

Rumraket wrote:

Macdoc wrote:Ouch - predators at play....on the US citizens...

“It’s the prices, stupid”
In 2003, a team of influential economists published a paper pointing out that prices are the key problem in American health care. It came with the title: “It’s the Prices, Stupid.”

good read
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... es-problem

and one reason we warn Canadian riders to NEVER EVER ride in the US with out health insurance cover for out of Canada.

Oh yes but you see, to change that thing there above someone is going to have to pay a bit more in taxes, and then you'd be ruining their life as they might have to buy the new mercedes just below the flagship model when it comes time to "upgrade" every 5 years. And we can't have that. No sir. You want affordable healthcare for everyone? You're a lazy millenial, or a bum, or a communist.

But they are that high because when insurance companies came around they demanded hospitals give them massive discounts. Hospitals could not run efficiently if they went with those discounts and they'd suffer if they ceased working with the insurance company so the result is overinflated costs of healthcare.

You say the easiest fix would be to have the government cover the cost, but I say the more likely fix at the moment is to crack down on insurance company greed. Regulate them more. Allow hospitals to charge what something is worth and force insurance companies to have to cover the cost of it with no discount. That way instead of paying $75 for that meal I had to eat when I was forced to stay at the hospital, I am now paying $10 for that meal I had to eat when I was forced to stay at the hospital and insurance companies would cover that $10 instead.

Fix the bureaucracy and administrative bloat which is raising costs.

And before: single payer would fix it blah blah blah. I KNOW. But practicality > ideology.

What? How are you going to crack down on corporate greed when they're PAYING the politicians! They'll never get regulated unless a new power gets in. If Sanders was in power now, do you really think he'd fail to get UHC especially with 2018 looming?

Not to mention Trump tried to cut off Obama care recently so Reps and Dems had to make a deal to postpone that for 2 years (so just after the 2018 elections) then they can continue trying to kill obama care.

Willie71 wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:

OlivierK wrote:You do know that most of Bernie's "failing positions", including single payer healthcare, have been successful in the countries that have implemented them...

Really! Which country has tried to expand US Medicare to everyone in the country and succeeded? Bernie's plan isn't even close to single payer either. Not the way it stands now with ~20% deductibles and supplemental policies required.

Not liking Bernie's ridiculous plan and thinking that he is an ineffectual buffoon is not the same as being against single payer/universal health care.

Still butt hurt over backing the worst candidate in American history? Get over it already.

LOL oh yeah he was a Clinton asskisser and can't stand that Sanders is tweice as popular as she is now and the most popular politician in the country.

Americans dying by the thousands every year due to lack of healthcare coverage, American families devastated by untreated health problems due to inability to pay for basic care, thousands of American families bankrupted by for-profit healthcare system - a small price to pay so rich people at the top can get even richer.





Those terrorists everyone is afraid of only wish they could do so much damage.

Teague wrote:

willhud9 wrote:

Rumraket wrote:

Macdoc wrote:Ouch - predators at play....on the US citizens...





good read
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... es-problem

and one reason we warn Canadian riders to NEVER EVER ride in the US with out health insurance cover for out of Canada.

Oh yes but you see, to change that thing there above someone is going to have to pay a bit more in taxes, and then you'd be ruining their life as they might have to buy the new mercedes just below the flagship model when it comes time to "upgrade" every 5 years. And we can't have that. No sir. You want affordable healthcare for everyone? You're a lazy millenial, or a bum, or a communist.

But they are that high because when insurance companies came around they demanded hospitals give them massive discounts. Hospitals could not run efficiently if they went with those discounts and they'd suffer if they ceased working with the insurance company so the result is overinflated costs of healthcare.

You say the easiest fix would be to have the government cover the cost, but I say the more likely fix at the moment is to crack down on insurance company greed. Regulate them more. Allow hospitals to charge what something is worth and force insurance companies to have to cover the cost of it with no discount. That way instead of paying $75 for that meal I had to eat when I was forced to stay at the hospital, I am now paying $10 for that meal I had to eat when I was forced to stay at the hospital and insurance companies would cover that $10 instead.

Fix the bureaucracy and administrative bloat which is raising costs.

And before: single payer would fix it blah blah blah. I KNOW. But practicality > ideology.

What? How are you going to crack down on corporate greed when they're PAYING the politicians! They'll never get regulated unless a new power gets in. If Sanders was in power now, do you really think he'd fail to get UHC especially with 2018 looming?

Not to mention Trump tried to cut off Obama care recently so Reps and Dems had to make a deal to postpone that for 2 years (so just after the 2018 elections) then they can continue trying to kill obama care.

If you actually knew how the American political system worked then you’d be able to tell me that Sanders, nor Trump, nor Clinton has any direct control over changes to healthcare. Congress does.

In case you haven’t noticed republicans are still winning congressional seats, but insurance companies are not very popular. Lobbying only goes so far. You saw that with smoking. The Tabacco lobby was set to funnel money into the system, but public approval of cigarettes changed.

All regulation is like that. You can believe that changing the foundations of our healthcare economy is easier than adding regulations to an existing economy, but you’d be wrong.

Teague wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:

Teague wrote:

laklak wrote:For one thing, I do not believe a single thing that comes out of Bernie's mouth.

Then you don't believe ANY politician. None of them have been consistent like Sanders over the last 4 decades.

Lacking the capacity to reconsider one's failing positions over 40 or 50 years isn't something to be proud of.

I'll break my embargo only to point out the stupidity of your post and the irony. 7330 posts and look who's talking!

Your embargo? Get the fuck over yourself, you're just some random asshole on the internet not the fucking queen.

willhud9 wrote:But [healthcare prices] are that high because when insurance companies came around they demanded hospitals give them massive discounts. Hospitals could not run efficiently if they went with those discounts and they'd suffer if they ceased working with the insurance company so the result is overinflated costs of healthcare.

From a business perspective, an insurance company couldn't give a shit whether it pays $3000 for a $3000 procedure, or $3000 for the same procedure with a $15000 sticker price and an 80% discount. What they care about is what an uninsured person pays. Rather than seeking discounts for themselves, they seek penalties for those who aren't their customers - a market distortion in their favour. Providers who agree to this market distortion are effectively engaging in cartel behaviour. The fact that these market distortions are propped up by fuckwit Republicans who preach the virtues of free markets is just a cruel joke on those too blinded by bullshit to see it for what it is.

willhud9 wrote:You say the easiest fix would be to have the government cover the cost, but I say the more likely fix at the moment is to crack down on insurance company greed. Regulate them more. Allow hospitals to charge what something is worth and force insurance companies to have to cover the cost of it with no discount. That way instead of paying $75 for that meal I had to eat when I was forced to stay at the hospital, I am now paying $10 for that meal I had to eat when I was forced to stay at the hospital and insurance companies would cover that $10 instead.

Yes, that would be a start.

willhud9 wrote:Fix the bureaucracy and administrative bloat which is raising costs.

And before: single payer would fix it blah blah blah. I KNOW. But practicality > ideology.

In the case of administrative bloat, single payer isn't ideology, it IS practicality. Administrative bloat is simply an overhead of a massively multiple-payer system. Those bureaucratic costs are baked in to the current US system. Single-payer is the only meaningful practical solution to that particular problem.

Aware which is why I’m all for single payer. The reality though is it’s not likely any time soon to become a thing and meanwhile there are legit concerns with the system that need to be fixed. What non-single later solutions are there that can alleviate a lot of the issues with healthcare costs? That’s the discussion that progressives need to have. Those sort of solutions lead to single payer.