Snap UK General Election

June 8th 2017

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Re: Snap UK General Election

#201  Postby CarlPierce » Apr 21, 2017 11:23 am

ronmcd wrote:
chairman bill wrote:Labour Party rules mean any MP (or Party member) who suggests people should vote for other than a Labour candidate, is subject to dismissal from the Party. And can you imagine the howls of outrage from the Bitterites if a Corbyn cabinet member, or Corbyn himself, was seen to countenance a pact with another party? And anyway, Farron has said he's prepared to go into coalition with the Tories again, so a LibDem vote is a potential Tory vote. Once bitten and all that. I might be prepared to engage in a vote swap, but simply voting LibDem to keep the Tory out, is no longer an option.

If I lived in England, there is no doubt I'd vote labour. I suppose i'd like to vote green in some way, but almost certainly wouldnt. Labour is the only choice.

Luckily, I don't have to.

edit - I'd be physically incapable of voting libdem, my brain would refuse to cooperate, and I'd black out mid-cross.


Understandable. Narrow minded nationalists tend to reject parties that want cooperation rather than separation.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#202  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 21, 2017 11:34 am

OlivierK wrote:Political will and priority setting, I'd guess.

The UK could easily afford a better-funded NHS if it gave up nuclear weapons, for example. Or if it just reversed the money ripped out of it since 2010.


This is true Oliver. Health care and education did not feature in last election a couple of months ago. No politician worth his salt would never raise it as an item on a political agenda.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#203  Postby Bubalus » Apr 21, 2017 11:53 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:We do pay higher taxes than Britain but the Dutch accept it. Certain fields are always covered such as education and health. They are not in the political area. They are run independent of government. We have large and very effective inspectorates in both. There is no 'Department of Health'. The health system is run by the private insurance companies.

Here is a CNN report over it.


Doing that in the UK would likely be tainted with the "privatising the NHS" tag.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#204  Postby Bubalus » Apr 21, 2017 11:53 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:We do pay higher taxes than Britain but the Dutch accept it. Certain fields are always covered such as education and health. They are not in the political area. They are run independent of government. We have large and very effective inspectorates in both. There is no 'Department of Health'. The health system is run by the private insurance companies.

Here is a CNN report over it.


Doing that in the UK would likely be tainted with the "privatising the NHS" tag.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#205  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 21, 2017 12:08 pm

I know but like so much Britain should look for solutions not try and invent the wheel again.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#206  Postby Bubalus » Apr 21, 2017 2:07 pm

Agreed but changes that might make it better are always charged with being an attack on our "national treasure" the "envy of the world".

I would love for it to be taken out of political control and run in the "Bismark" manner rather than the "Bevin" model that it is atm.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#207  Postby archibald » Apr 21, 2017 2:12 pm

I'm sure it could be properly sold to the electorate, should any party choose to do that.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#208  Postby Beatsong » Apr 21, 2017 2:26 pm

archibald wrote:Poll: more than half of voters would be happy to pay more tax for a better NHS:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... d-nhs-poll

At a guess, I'd say they were the not financially not so well off half.


At a guess, I'd say they were full of shit and the moment they hear "Big Bad Labour Will Put Your Taxes Up" they'll run like frightened little children to vote tory.

... and then keep complaining about the NHS.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#209  Postby fluttermoth » Apr 21, 2017 2:30 pm

Beatsong wrote:
archibald wrote:Poll: more than half of voters would be happy to pay more tax for a better NHS:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... d-nhs-poll

At a guess, I'd say they were the not financially not so well off half.


At a guess, I'd say they were full of shit and the moment they hear "Big Bad Labour Will Put Your Taxes Up" they'll run like frightened little children to vote tory.

... and then keep complaining about the NHS.


I've been saying something similar for a while. In public they'll say 'the right thing' and that they're willing to pay more, but put them alone in that voting booth and it's another matter entirely, I think. Self interest wins out :(
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#210  Postby Beatsong » Apr 21, 2017 2:36 pm

fluttermoth wrote:Self interest wins out :(


Well, the delusional perception of self interest wins out.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#211  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 21, 2017 2:37 pm

Yep Bevin is old hat.

Here is the EHCI 2016
Euro Health Consumer Index 2016
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#212  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 21, 2017 2:41 pm

Beatsong wrote:
fluttermoth wrote:Self interest wins out :(


Well, the delusional perception of self interest wins out.


We spend $5000 p.p.p. against $3100 p.p.p. (See EHCI2016).
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#213  Postby ronmcd » Apr 21, 2017 2:41 pm

CarlPierce wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
chairman bill wrote:Labour Party rules mean any MP (or Party member) who suggests people should vote for other than a Labour candidate, is subject to dismissal from the Party. And can you imagine the howls of outrage from the Bitterites if a Corbyn cabinet member, or Corbyn himself, was seen to countenance a pact with another party? And anyway, Farron has said he's prepared to go into coalition with the Tories again, so a LibDem vote is a potential Tory vote. Once bitten and all that. I might be prepared to engage in a vote swap, but simply voting LibDem to keep the Tory out, is no longer an option.

If I lived in England, there is no doubt I'd vote labour. I suppose i'd like to vote green in some way, but almost certainly wouldnt. Labour is the only choice.

Luckily, I don't have to.

edit - I'd be physically incapable of voting libdem, my brain would refuse to cooperate, and I'd black out mid-cross.


Understandable. Narrow minded nationalists tend to reject parties that want cooperation rather than separation.

LOL. You've clearly never met, listened to, or otherwise been exposed to your leader, Timmy, who would rather insult the 45% of Scotland who voted yes than consider any cooperation with our elected politicians if they happen to be from SNP.

And it's lovely to see you confirm you share Timmy's abject ignorance of Scottish politcs, with the use of the "narrow nationalists" meme.

Oh, and it wasn't SNP who rejected the last opportunity for a progressive alliance, in 2010. it was your shameful orange-book Tories who prostituted their morals for ministerial cars.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#214  Postby Beatsong » Apr 21, 2017 2:51 pm

The Bevin vs Bismarck model thing is a red herring. Both can achieve good outcomes, when properly funded and administered. I read a study somewhere that said countries with a government run/Bevin model tended to have slightly higher financial efficiency (due to the massive bargaining power of any organisation as large as the NHS), but those with a social insurance/Bismarck model tended to achieve slightly better health outcomes (can't remember why).

The problem in the UK is that everybody knows full well if the change to a private insurance based model is instituted and managed by the tories, it won't be like Germany or Dutch land, it'll be the USA on steroids. It will be devised with one purpose only which will be to direct as much money as possible to the rich, and a judgment will be made about what proportion of the poor can be left to die because they don't vote or the tories don't need their votes.

I'm not ideologically attached to the idea of a government-run NHS, but when Corbyn talks about it with no compromise towards the private sector I support him, because I know these (UK-style NHS or USA-style fuck-the-poor "free" market) are the only two actual options. Britain isn't mature or enlightened enough yet for anything in between.

Yet another respect in which the class system poisons everything at the very root of British society.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#215  Postby archibald » Apr 21, 2017 3:07 pm

fluttermoth wrote:
Beatsong wrote:
archibald wrote:Poll: more than half of voters would be happy to pay more tax for a better NHS:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... d-nhs-poll

At a guess, I'd say they were the not financially not so well off half.


At a guess, I'd say they were full of shit and the moment they hear "Big Bad Labour Will Put Your Taxes Up" they'll run like frightened little children to vote tory.

... and then keep complaining about the NHS.


I've been saying something similar for a while. In public they'll say 'the right thing' and that they're willing to pay more, but put them alone in that voting booth and it's another matter entirely, I think. Self interest wins out :(


You're probably right.

I would only say that it isn't too much of a stretch to think that people could be persuaded to think slightly differently. It's not as if The Netherlands is/are on another planet. :)
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#216  Postby archibald » Apr 21, 2017 3:08 pm

Beatsong wrote:The Bevin vs Bismarck model thing is a red herring. Both can achieve good outcomes, when properly funded and administered. I read a study somewhere that said countries with a government run/Bevin model tended to have slightly higher financial efficiency (due to the massive bargaining power of any organisation as large as the NHS), but those with a social insurance/Bismarck model tended to achieve slightly better health outcomes (can't remember why).

The problem in the UK is that everybody knows full well if the change to a private insurance based model is instituted and managed by the tories, it won't be like Germany or Dutch land, it'll be the USA on steroids. It will be devised with one purpose only which will be to direct as much money as possible to the rich, and a judgment will be made about what proportion of the poor can be left to die because they don't vote or the tories don't need their votes.

I'm not ideologically attached to the idea of a government-run NHS, but when Corbyn talks about it with no compromise towards the private sector I support him, because I know these (UK-style NHS or USA-style fuck-the-poor "free" market) are the only two actual options. Britain isn't mature or enlightened enough yet for anything in between.

Yet another respect in which the class system poisons everything at the very root of British society.


Sadly, that may contain a lot of truth, currently at least.

One might add that an alarming number of politicians or parties do well out of things like PFI.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#217  Postby chairman bill » Apr 21, 2017 4:24 pm

Though up until 2010, the NHS was set to exceed the performance of both France & Germany, whilst costing less. The Tories fucked that up by putting services out to tender by private companies, who've then taken profits out of money that would have gone on services, provided less good services (surprise, surprise), and sometimes walked away from contracts they can't deliver. Oh, and been sacked for fucking things up (e.g. Virgin Care in Cornwall), but then allowed to bid for other services.

Taking it all back into public ownership & binning the PFI cons, is our best bet. Now who plans to do that?
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#218  Postby Alan B » Apr 21, 2017 4:28 pm

Just had this arrive in my in-box:
Change.org PR
Make this the last General Election to use our broken voting system

There is a snap general election on 8th June. We need to make sure it is the last one to use the archaic First Past the Post voting system.
I was 16 years old at the last general election. I couldn't vote but I was frustrated that the election results didn't reflect how people voted, so I started this petition for a fairer voting system.
Two years on and I'm finally allowed to vote - but my vote still doesn't matter. I want to be able to vote for whichever party I believe in. I don't want to be scared of 'wasting' my vote or 'letting the other side in'. I want a vote that counts.
The only fair and democratic system of electing MPs is one that matches seats in Parliament to how people voted - proportional representation.
During the EU referendum campaign, senior Conservative politicians including Liam Fox, Iain Duncan Smith and David Cameron celebrated the fact that every vote in the referendum counted equally. Now it's time we applied the same principle to our general elections by moving to a system of Proportional Representation (PR).
One of the reasons that people voted to Leave the European Union was because they wanted more of a say in our democracy and wanted to 'take back control'. The only way we can have a real democracy, and take control of how the country is run, is through an electoral system which is fair and proportional.
In 2015, the Green Party, Liberal Democrats and UKIP won almost 25% of the votes but now make up just 1.6% of MPs. UKIP won 3.8 million votes and one MP, whilst the SNP won 1.5 million votes and 56 MPs. It was the most disproportionate general election since women won the vote in 1918, with 74% of votes wasted.
/cont.
Nearly 244,000 sigs.

Signed.

But I don't think it will have any effect, mores the pity.
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#219  Postby Beatsong » Apr 21, 2017 4:35 pm

chairman bill wrote:Though up until 2010, the NHS was set to exceed the performance of both France & Germany, whilst costing less. The Tories fucked that up by putting services out to tender by private companies, who've then taken profits out of money that would have gone on services, provided less good services (surprise, surprise), and sometimes walked away from contracts they can't deliver. Oh, and been sacked for fucking things up (e.g. Virgin Care in Cornwall), but then allowed to bid for other services.

Taking it all back into public ownership & binning the PFI cons, is our best bet. Now who plans to do that?


Michael Foot?
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Re: Snap UK General Election

#220  Postby Tracer Tong » Apr 21, 2017 4:53 pm

Proportional representation is fab. Just ask the Belgian government, assuming it's formed yet.
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