SNP Watch

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Re: SNP Watch

#1561  Postby Matt_B » Aug 30, 2019 11:43 pm

zerne wrote:That's not a disqualifier for Tory leadership.


It's practically a requirement these days.
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Re: SNP Watch

#1562  Postby zerne » Aug 31, 2019 10:15 am

Smart money would suggest waiting until Ruth tips her successor, then pick someone else.

Won't make much difference for the Scottish branch of the Conservatives, between the Lib Dems on one side and Brexit Party on the other they will get slaughtered in the upcoming elections.

Lib Dems win Shetland
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49502204
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Re: SNP Watch

#1563  Postby ronmcd » Aug 31, 2019 3:26 pm

zerne wrote:Smart money would suggest waiting until Ruth tips her successor, then pick someone else.

Won't make much difference for the Scottish branch of the Conservatives, between the Lib Dems on one side and Brexit Party on the other they will get slaughtered in the upcoming elections.

Lib Dems win Shetland
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49502204

Tories and Labour both lost their deposits.
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Re: SNP Watch

#1564  Postby zerne » Aug 31, 2019 9:29 pm

Scottish Labour cannot help themselves. Their continued insistence on the sanctity of the union puts them in lockstep with the Conservatives. It fails to recognise that there is a valid political mandate for allowing the discussion in the first place. The Green Party was successful because they came out in support of a referendum and under our voting system they naturally benefit from the 2nd preference of damn well near every SNP voter.

If Scottish Labour supported a referendum, not independence itself, but the principle that Scotland and it's parliament should be respected in letting the populace vote on the matter due to their political mandate and majority, they would gain more support. But they don't. They won't. And it's killing them electorally.

That and Corbyn. :awesome:
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Re: SNP Watch

#1565  Postby ronmcd » Aug 31, 2019 10:01 pm

I started to write a post starting with "the problem for Scottish Labour is ..." but then realised I might be here some time :smile:

But really their *main* problem is people don't believe them any more. Voters don't think they know what they stand for, and can't be trusted. Sad.
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Re: SNP Watch

#1566  Postby zerne » Aug 31, 2019 10:32 pm

So what next?

Hope for Labour UK Government or coalition? Either by vote of confidence or general election. Of course the current alliance of CON/DUP might be successful in dragging its arse across the deadline.

It could be argued that if the UK Government renders itself a failed state by its actions; and fucking up the GFA features prominently in that, our own Scottish Government should proceed with a referendum that it has shown itself quite capable of holding. Referendums not being a reserved matter.

We still have 2021 to look forward to. I thought it was 2020, but apparently that clashed with a General Election year so switched to the year later. 6th May, a Thursday. So we'll either be reaching the end of the transition, or feeling fully the effects of this Brexit fuckwittery. It's not looking great for UK continuance.

The further shocks to rUK won't come until Scotland and NI switch currency from Sterling to Euro.
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Re: SNP Watch

#1567  Postby zerne » Sep 04, 2019 11:05 am

I watched quite a bit of the debate in the house last night, and some of it was very fascinating. There appears to be a argument that goes along the lines of; the country voted for Brexit, we have to respect that result, therefore MPs should vote for Brexit/support the government's "plans".

The two SNP MPs i saw making speeches, Ian Blackford and Tommy Shepard were both very articulate in pointing out that they were representatives elected by voters who where anti-Brexit, from a party overwhelmingly against Brexit and a country that voted against leaving the EU. Their duty was to represent their constituencies interests and vote accordingly.

So you have a party that cultivates fugitive democracy, also playing their part in a a managed democracy (both sides of the border) that is acting against another fugitive democratic vote.

My thoughts are that if you really want a referendum to stick, you should probably make it legally binding and not advisory.
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Re: SNP Watch

#1568  Postby zerne » Sep 09, 2019 10:03 am

A familiar face giving a TED talk on governments and their responsibilities:

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Re: SNP Watch

#1569  Postby ronmcd » Sep 15, 2019 10:23 am

lol


*stares in Scottish*

Sky News:
MP Chuka Umunna says he thinks it particularly suits "extreme Brexiteers" to say "we had one vote in 2016 & somehow democracy stopped at that point & any further votes or mandates that we have after that point don't count" adding "that's just not the way British democracy works"
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Re: SNP Watch

#1571  Postby zerne » Sep 15, 2019 1:43 pm

Bless his heart. Hasn't a scooby about politics in Scotland really.

Jo at conference talking about keeping the UK together and saving the union, fighting for Scotland's place in the union. Um, yeah. No. This was the same person who was willing to be in coalition with the Conservatives and helped implement austerity. Just no.

Jo Swinson isn't a bad choice of leader, she's articulate and speaks with clarity. They're just too right wing for me.
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Re: SNP Watch

#1572  Postby ronmcd » Sep 15, 2019 2:12 pm

Has Jo just said this?
:shock:

Let me get this right - the LibDems say that if they win a majority of seats that’ll be a mandate to cancel #Brexit without a referendum? But when @theSNP gets a majority of seats that’s not a mandate for independence with or without a referendum? So only LibDem mandates count?

https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/stat ... 5469339648
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Re: SNP Watch

#1573  Postby zerne » Sep 15, 2019 7:20 pm

ronmcd wrote:Has Jo just said this?
:shock:

Let me get this right - the LibDems say that if they win a majority of seats that’ll be a mandate to cancel #Brexit without a referendum? But when @theSNP gets a majority of seats that’s not a mandate for independence with or without a referendum? So only LibDem mandates count?

https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/stat ... 5469339648


Manifesto pledge now. A LibDem pledge that is.

It's conditional upon the UK going slightly mad in a general election and electing a majority of LibDem MPs to Parliament. The LibDems are currently the 4th largest party in Parliament.Their biggest share of MPs ever was 62. It's currently around 18. Sso it's a reach. In the event of the LibDems not sweeping majestically to power on an orange wave of tepid conservatism, they'll be found to be still supporting a people's vote.
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Re: SNP Watch

#1574  Postby ronmcd » Sep 15, 2019 8:27 pm

It's another of those pledges that they know they can never be in a position to implement. Scottish Labour do it all the time, don't they, promising all sorts of shit they will never be in power to implement.

But this. A majority of seats to cancel a mandate created by a referendum. Yikes. It's like Jo Swinson is trolling Scotland.
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Re: SNP Watch

#1575  Postby zerne » Sep 15, 2019 9:53 pm

A politically expedient promise. It reinforces their anti-Brexit stance and doesn't matter that the conditions will never be met in this election or the next. I'm sure Swinson has dreams of imitating the SNP with their pr-EU ambitions and dominance, but i suspect that if we were to have an election before Christmas the Lib Dems would be 50/50 on remaining in 4th place cos the SNP are likely to sweep the board with those FPTP elections. :)
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Re: SNP Watch

#1576  Postby zerne » Sep 22, 2019 10:24 am

If we are to believe the Lib Dems with their newfound policy, an overall majority in Parliament confers enough legitimacy to support any actions of that Government. This is democratic.

I would like to see Jo Swinson asked if a majority in Scotland's Parliament confers the same legitimacy and ask whether an SNP majority would be justified in declaring Independence without a referendum?

Mostly i just want to see the expression on her face as her hypocrisy becomes apparent. :)
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Re: SNP Watch

#1577  Postby ronmcd » Sep 22, 2019 1:55 pm

zerne wrote:If we are to believe the Lib Dems with their newfound policy, an overall majority in Parliament confers enough legitimacy to support any actions of that Government. This is democratic.

I would like to see Jo Swinson asked if a majority in Scotland's Parliament confers the same legitimacy and ask whether an SNP majority would be justified in declaring Independence without a referendum?

Mostly i just want to see the expression on her face as her hypocrisy becomes apparent. :)

Her face didn't show any confusion/remorse/understanding when she explained her position to Scottish journos. When asked why this wasn't hypocrisy when she said a majority at Holyrood wasnt a mandate even for a referendum, she said because it's *mumble mumble different mumble*.
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Re: SNP Watch

#1578  Postby ronmcd » Sep 22, 2019 2:20 pm

Scottish Labour members and elected representatives are considering following defectors out of the party because of the way Jeremy Corbyn has “run roughshod” over the party’s opposition to a second independence referendum

https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/ ... 8508066816

Most embarrassingly for SLab Corbyn has copied @theSNP policies that they opposed in Scotland, as with free prescriptions today

https://twitter.com/nealrstewart/status ... 1066577922
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Re: SNP Watch

#1579  Postby mrjonno » Sep 22, 2019 3:58 pm

The problem for Scottish Labour is Scotland does not need 2 independence parties. (Almost certainly the SNP would split after independence).

However, Westminster is still a 2 party system so you have 1 independence party and one union party (there simply isn't room for the Tories, Lib Dem's and Labour to take that party)
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Re: SNP Watch

#1580  Postby zerne » Sep 22, 2019 8:59 pm

ronmcd wrote:
zerne wrote:If we are to believe the Lib Dems with their newfound policy, an overall majority in Parliament confers enough legitimacy to support any actions of that Government. This is democratic.

I would like to see Jo Swinson asked if a majority in Scotland's Parliament confers the same legitimacy and ask whether an SNP majority would be justified in declaring Independence without a referendum?

Mostly i just want to see the expression on her face as her hypocrisy becomes apparent. :)

Her face didn't show any confusion/remorse/understanding when she explained her position to Scottish journos. When asked why this wasn't hypocrisy when she said a majority at Holyrood wasnt a mandate even for a referendum, she said because it's *mumble mumble different mumble*.


Aye, there's the rub. The difference.

I recall the Lib Dems once being very ardent proponents of a proportionally representative system. There was one particular Party Political Broadcast that stuck with me because it featured John Cleese. He explained how the LIb Dems and their voters were not being fairly represented at Westminster. I think they had 6 MPs at that time or something. It made sense to me. I learned more about these sorts of systems and they appear to be only beneficial. Good for representative democracy.

Now Holyrood is exactly that, as a Parliament it delivers everything they once held dear and yet they balk at the impudence of an electorate that commands a sustained majority for an advisory independence referendum. Not demanding the ability to legislate for independence itself, as the Lib Dems would do should they wield total power in Westminster, but a referendum to allow the question to be put to the electorate. In this case, the First Minister is rather compelled by a manifesto pledge previous to the EU vote. That's probably not something the Lib Dems can empathise with.

Oh, as i write. Nice to see that Labour have now adopted a policy of abolishing prescription charges in England. Took long enough. :)
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