Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

laklak · **#41** by **laklak** » May 28, 2016 1:18 am

It's the business of the Swiss. Their country, their rules.

Fallible · **#42** by **Fallible** » May 28, 2016 7:56 am

I'm of the view that no one should be forced to touch anybody or be touched by anybody. I prefer bodily autonomy.

Exstinctum · **#43** by **Exstinctum** » May 28, 2016 12:07 pm

While by no means ''mandatory'', it's a long living custom to shake hands, between males in particular, upon meeting, and with all people when being introduced to them in Eastern Europe. I remember when I went to high school and basically shook around 90 hands every single day, often twice since we forgot that we ran into each other in the corridors. It can get pretty tedious after a while and I can see why this custom is outdated. I'm sure the teachers are tired of shaking hundreds of student's hands all day long every single day, too. It's a bit silly really, in my opinion. Clearly it should be optional and the idea that parents of a child who refuses to shake hands with his or her teacher should be fined is completely outrageous, whatever are the grounds behind making that decision.
There's always the other side of the coin in these instances. If I traveled to Southern Italy and an Italian man kissed my cheek upon meeting, I wouldn't freak out, call the police and claim sexual assault, simply because I don't fancy the idea of men kissing me. If any headline would appear, if I did that, it would state something like ''A homophobic Latvian accuses a man of sexual assault for simply kissing his cheek''. So there's that.

Shrunk · **#44** by **Shrunk** » May 28, 2016 12:10 pm

A Facebook friend has made me reconsider my position on this issue. Refusing to shake hands with a teacher is different than refusing to shake hands with a teacher because she is female. If they were refusing to attend a class altogether because the teacher was a woman, I would not support that. Nor would I support their refusing to shake a teacher's hand because he was black or Jewish. So I think It'd be inconsistent of me if I continued to support these students.

The question of whether any student should be required to shake his teacher's hand is a separate issue, of course

Exstinctum · **#45** by **Exstinctum** » May 28, 2016 12:16 pm

Shrunk wrote:A Facebook friend has made me reconsider my position on this issue. Refusing to shake hands with a teacher is different than refusing to shake hands with a teacher because she is female. If they were refusing to attend a class altogether because the teacher was a woman, I would not support that. Nor would I support their refusing to shake a teacher's hand because he was black or Jewish. So I think It'd be inconsistent of me if I continued to support these students.

The question of whether any student should be required to shake his teacher's hand is a separate issue, of course

I really don't think that the motive here even matters. The whole thing is silly. How about I don't want to shake my teacher's hand because I simply don't like him or her? Maybe I feel they give me worse grades than I deserve, perhaps I don't agree with their teaching methods. Who cares. I don't see any possible reasoning behind the state enforcing a law in schools that requires people to touch each other in any shape or form.

''Because she is female'' in this case indeed is the case, but we have come to a weird point in great many societies these days. I have been accused of these sorts of things before. Situations where you simply dislike someone as a person or because what they stand for/believe in often gets conflated with certain identifiers, mostly race, sex and origin. The good ol', if you criticize Israel you hate Jews approach. A bit of an off topic though.

Shrunk · **#46** by **Shrunk** » May 28, 2016 12:19 pm

Exstinctum wrote:I really don't think that the motive here even matters. The whole thing is silly. How about I don't want to shake my teacher's hand because I simply don't like him or her? Maybe I feel they give me worse grades than I deserve, perhaps I don't agree with their teaching methods. Who cares. I don't see any possible reasoning behind the state enforcing a law in schools that requires people to touch each other in any shape or form.

Yup. So these kids, even if inadvertently, were providing an opportunity to re-evaluate an archaic and absurd law. Unfortunately, fears over hordes of brown people destroying the Swiss way of life seem to have held sway, instead.

The_Metatron · **#47** by **The_Metatron** » May 28, 2016 8:17 pm

Shrunk wrote:A Facebook friend has made me reconsider my position on this issue. Refusing to shake hands with a teacher is different than refusing to shake hands with a teacher because she is female. If they were refusing to attend a class altogether because the teacher was a woman, I would not support that. Nor would I support their refusing to shake a teacher's hand because he was black or Jewish. So I think It'd be inconsistent of me if I continued to support these students.

The question of whether any student should be required to shake his teacher's hand is a separate issue, of course

Impressive. Most impressive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rumraket · **#48** by **Rumraket** » May 28, 2016 9:05 pm

Shrunk wrote:A Facebook friend has made me reconsider my position on this issue. Refusing to shake hands with a teacher is different than refusing to shake hands with a teacher because she is female. If they were refusing to attend a class altogether because the teacher was a woman, I would not support that. Nor would I support their refusing to shake a teacher's hand because he was black or Jewish. So I think It'd be inconsistent of me if I continued to support these students.

The question of whether any student should be required to shake his teacher's hand is a separate issue, of course

laklak · **#49** by **laklak** » May 29, 2016 5:17 pm

Anyone else find it strange one of the largest and fastest growing religions in the world still thinks girls have cooties?

Arjan Dirkse · **#50** by **Arjan Dirkse** » May 29, 2016 5:28 pm

laklak wrote:Anyone else find it strange one of the largest and fastest growing religions in the world still thinks girls have cooties?

It is religion...nothing surprises me, to be honest.

I'm With Stupid · **#51** by **I'm With Stupid** » May 29, 2016 6:31 pm

Nobody has mentioned the more interesting part of the story.

The family's citizenship process was halted and the migration office in Basel said it was seeking more information about the circumstances under which the boys' father's asylum request was approved.

Here's a link to a specific story about that part.

So here's a question. Should a country refuse citizenship to an applicant who openly hold views that are considered contrary to those of the majority of the population and the law?

I'm With Stupid · **#52** by **I'm With Stupid** » May 29, 2016 6:33 pm

laklak wrote:Anyone else find it strange one of the largest and fastest growing religions in the world still thinks girls have cooties?

To be fair, the majority of Muslim organisations in Switzerland took the view that there's nothing in Islam that forbids shaking hands with the opposite sex.

laklak · **#53** by **laklak** » May 29, 2016 6:42 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:
So here's a question. Should a country refuse citizenship to an applicant who openly hold views that are considered contrary to those of the majority of the population and the law?

Absolutely. When you become a naturalized American citizen you swear to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution". If someone doesn't want to do that then they should go elsewhere. We owe them nothing.

Shrunk · **#54** by **Shrunk** » May 29, 2016 6:52 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:Nobody has mentioned the more interesting part of the story.

The family's citizenship process was halted and the migration office in Basel said it was seeking more information about the circumstances under which the boys' father's asylum request was approved.

Here's a link to a specific story about that part.

So here's a question. Should a country refuse citizenship to an applicant who openly hold views that are considered contrary to those of the majority of the population and the law?

So, for instance, a person should be allowed to become a Canadian citizen if, e.g., he thinks marijuana should be illegal?

No. I don't think so.

Arjan Dirkse · **#55** by **Arjan Dirkse** » May 29, 2016 7:04 pm

Yes, if those views are problematic enough. It is not an exact science. Some contrary views should not be reason for refusal, others should. If a staunch nazi emigrated to another country and would be denied a naturalization request in any other country in the world, that wouldn't be surprising.

laklak · **#56** by **laklak** » May 29, 2016 7:07 pm

True, it's a bit more nuanced than my original post.

tuco · **#57** by **tuco** » May 29, 2016 7:10 pm

Shrunk wrote:A Facebook friend has made me reconsider my position on this issue. Refusing to shake hands with a teacher is different than refusing to shake hands with a teacher because she is female. If they were refusing to attend a class altogether because the teacher was a woman, I would not support that. Nor would I support their refusing to shake a teacher's hand because he was black or Jewish. So I think It'd be inconsistent of me if I continued to support these students.

The question of whether any student should be required to shake his teacher's hand is a separate issue, of course

How did you support them? Don't talk to people on FB, they give you strange ideas ;)

The problem was that 2 Syrian boys refused to handshake female teachers for religious reasons. The handshake is traditional in Swiss and it allegedly serves as sign of respect.

Now the two boys been ordered to handshakes. What is the issue? Issues were several. For example: Did they mean disrespect? Or: Will ordering them to handshakes build respect? Or: Are both traditions mindless and unnecessary? What issue? How did you support them in your 3 posts here? Because I do not see it.

Shrunk · **#58** by **Shrunk** » May 29, 2016 7:24 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Yes, if those views are problematic enough. It is not an exact science. Some contrary views should not be reason for refusal, others should. If a staunch nazi emigrated to another country and would be denied a naturalization request in any other country in the world, that wouldn't be surprising.

If it can be argued that a person represents a risk to the security or stability of the country then sure. But that's more than just disagreeing with the laws and customs of the country.

Shrunk · **#59** by **Shrunk** » May 29, 2016 7:29 pm

tuco wrote:
Shrunk wrote:A Facebook friend has made me reconsider my position on this issue. Refusing to shake hands with a teacher is different than refusing to shake hands with a teacher because she is female. If they were refusing to attend a class altogether because the teacher was a woman, I would not support that. Nor would I support their refusing to shake a teacher's hand because he was black or Jewish. So I think It'd be inconsistent of me if I continued to support these students.

The question of whether any student should be required to shake his teacher's hand is a separate issue, of course

How did you support them? Don't talk to people on FB, they give you strange ideas

The problem was that 2 Syrian boys refused to handshake female teachers for religious reasons. The handshake is traditional in Swiss and it allegedly serves as sign of respect.

Now the two boys been ordered to handshakes. What is the issue? Issues were several. For example: Did they mean disrespect? Or: Will ordering them to handshakes build respect? Or: Are both traditions mindless and unnecessary? What issue? How did you support them in your 3 posts here? Because I do not see it.

I previously thought they should be allowed to refuse the shake their female teacher's hand. I no longer believe that. If they said their religion forbade handshakes in any circumstance, then that should be accommodated, since it does not impose on anyone else and the handshake serves no purpose. Ideally, they whole stupid and unhygienic ritual should be abolished.

I'm With Stupid · **#60** by **I'm With Stupid** » May 29, 2016 7:32 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:Yes, if those views are problematic enough. It is not an exact science. Some contrary views should not be reason for refusal, others should. If a staunch nazi emigrated to another country and would be denied a naturalization request in any other country in the world, that wouldn't be surprising.

If it can be argued that a person represents a risk to the security or stability of the country then sure. But that's more than just disagreeing with the laws and customs of the country.

This bloke is an Imam, which presumably means he's dedicated to preaching and spreading his views. So would that be grounds to refuse citizenship?

Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

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Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

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