UK Coalition watch

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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7801  Postby ED209 » Nov 15, 2014 12:11 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:I never "assert" anything without data. You could find the data online quicker than you could write that response. Rest assured, if I write something, it's a demonstrable fact.


Apart from the many, many times when it has been demonstrated to be false :rofl:
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7802  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 15, 2014 12:16 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:I never "assert" anything without data. You could find the data online quicker than you could write that response. Rest assured, if I write something, it's a demonstrable fact.


Too lazy to show it then. You are making the assertion then provide the evidence.


Being called too lazy by someone who can't be arsed to check. Brilliant.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=zero+hours+contrac ... ekly+hours

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -FINAL.pdf

In terms of the actual hours worked by those on zero hours contracts, the LFS data in Chart 3 shows that the average ‘usual weekly hours’ worked under zero hours contracts has declined from over 30 to in the range of 21 - 25 hours.


http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171766_373757.pdf

The average actual weekly hours worked by people in employment who report being on a zero-hours contract is 22 hours compared with 32 hours for all workers.


Now stop wasting my fucking time.
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7803  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 15, 2014 12:22 pm

From the pdf wrote:As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject to a margin of uncertainty. For the
April to June 2014 figure, it is estimated that the true figure is likely to lie between 558,000 and
686,000. This is in addition to the likely reporting error as mentioned above.
The estimates presented here are not seasonally adjusted. This means that possible short-term
effects associated with the time of year may influence the figures. For this reason, ONS does not
recommend comparing the difference between the latest estimates for April to June 2014 with
October to December 2013 as a measure of change. Any seasonal factors associated with zero-
hours contracts will not be measurable until a sufficient time-series has been established
.


Yeah great data but what do you expect from torydems? Facts cannot be massaged estimates can.
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7804  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 15, 2014 1:04 pm

Haven't you already been warned about misrepresenting data sources?
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7805  Postby ED209 » Nov 15, 2014 1:09 pm

Are you really sure you want to go there? :rofl:
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7806  Postby THWOTH » Nov 15, 2014 1:23 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
THWOTH wrote:What a shocking defunct system they seem to have erected inherited.


Fixed that for you.

Hmm. That might be an apposite and relevent comment if we were discussing a system untrammelled by wholesale reform, but the welfare and benefits system has been made anew under the Coalition - it is no longer the system the Coalition inherited; it is the system they have re-structured, legislated for, and now administrate.

If you think the Coalitions policies are an improvement or a fix then we might have something substantial to talk about, even as we are obviously going to disagree about quite a bit, but your remark above - unsupported by any further qualification as it is - reflects not only the eagerness the Coalition and its supporter display in absenting themselves of political, legislative and administrative responsibility for their welfare and benefits policies, but also the depths they are prepared to sink to in so doing.

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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7807  Postby ED209 » Nov 15, 2014 1:25 pm

Actually, I don't think this pathetic strawman should be allowed to pass unremarked:

Strontium Dog wrote:Always the mendacious implication that a zero hours contract means that people actually work zero hours, when the average is 21 hours a week. Anything to paint real jobs as fake jobs, I suppose.


Scot nowhere said that the average hours worked is zero. Obviously, that would mean that zero hours jobs do not actually exist, because nobody anywhere would be working a single hour under them.

And as a matter of fact, zero hours contracts do mean that there are people working zero hours over whatever unspecified time period you want to move your goalposts to. That is precisely why exploitative employers and torydems are so fond of them.

So in just one sentence you managed to cram in one lie ("Always... "), one strawman (as above) , and one fallacy of irrelevance (introducing averages). That's quite the demonstration in 'conciseness of bullshit'.
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7808  Postby THWOTH » Nov 15, 2014 2:35 pm

Figures from the ONS show the relative proportion of zero-hours work to other types of employment in the current labour market.

Proportion of people in employment by age
Image

A zero hours contract (ZHC) is not a legal term, but refers to employment contracts where employers are not obliged to guarantee working hours. 64% of ZHC employees are part-time compared to 27% on other types of contract. The ONS Labour Force Survey (LFS) reported in April that 16% of people on ZHC worked no hours in the week before the survey compared 11% of people on other types of contract. The ONS estimates there are between 1.2 million and 1.7 million ZHC in operation, and if the time-worked figures in the survey are typical it would mean around a quarter of a million people are technically in employment but are not working any hours every week. During the LFS sampling period 41% of people on ZHC worked less than their usual hours, though 18% worked more. 35% of people on ZHC reported wanting more hours, compared to 12% non-ZHC employees, and 14% were actively looking for another job compared to 3% of non-ZHC workers. The fact that more people on ZHC are looking for more work reflects that ZHC are effectively part-time even as the government classifies these workers as in full-time employment. It's estimated that the hourly rate of ZHC workers is £8.83 compared to £13.39 for other types of employment.

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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7809  Postby chairman bill » Nov 15, 2014 10:44 pm

All in it together, and it's fair. My arse.

Revealed: how coalition has helped rich by hitting poor
Study shows gains for wealthier half of population, delivering a blow to George Osborne’s claims on fairness
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/15/coalition-helped-rich-hitting-poor-george-osborne

A landmark study of the coalition’s tax and welfare policies six months before the general election reveals how money has been transferred from the poorest to the better off, apparently refuting the chancellor of the exchequer’s claims that the country has been “all in it together”.

According to independent research to be published on Monday and seen by the Observer, George Osborne has been engaged in a significant transfer of income from the least well-off half of the population to the more affluent in the past four years. Those with the lowest incomes have been hit hardest. (cont)
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7810  Postby mrjonno » Nov 16, 2014 8:08 am

With ZHC it's very simple , if you want to be a temp without guaranteed work that is fine just make it illegal for any company to prevent you from working for someone else.

The benefits system also needs to reform itself as it takes far too long to processs change
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7811  Postby chairman bill » Nov 16, 2014 10:42 am

mrjonno wrote:With ZHC it's very simple , if you want to be a temp without guaranteed work that is fine just make it illegal for any company to prevent you from working for someone else.


The key word there is 'want'. The trouble is, too many employers are abusing workers with ZHC. Also, when did minimum wage become the going rate for so many jobs?
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7812  Postby mrjonno » Nov 16, 2014 12:05 pm

Before the minimum wage well lots of people earn t a lot less, the reality is minimum wage is always going to be the maximum wage for a lot of peopole
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7813  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 16, 2014 3:39 pm

mrjonno wrote:With ZHC it's very simple , if you want to be a temp without guaranteed work that is fine just make it illegal for any company to prevent you from working for someone else.

The benefits system also needs to reform itself as it takes far too long to processs change


I find myself in a rare moment of complete agreement with a mrjonno post. As it happens, the government is already taking steps to ban exclusivity clauses.
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7814  Postby ED209 » Nov 16, 2014 9:41 pm

Councils are in crisis – and it happened on Nick Clegg’s watch
English councils will soon have lost almost a quarter of their funding in five years thanks to coalition policies

A catchy, engaging yet shocking cartoon outlining the crisis facing Sheffield is doing the rounds in the constituency city of Nick Clegg. In what should prove the ultimate local embarrassment for the deputy prime minister, the short city council film graphically illustrates the unprecedented onslaught against local government.

English councils will soon have lost almost a quarter of their funding in five years. Those most in need, such as Sheffield, are being hit hardest. It has happened on the watch of the MP for Sheffield Hallam.

Since 2010, £238m has been removed from Sheffield city council’s budget, with a further £60m likely to be slashed next year. “We are facing the worst financial crisis in our history,” says the cartoon commentator, deceptively calmly. She politely reminds viewers, in friendly South Yorkshire tones – delivering hard evidence rather than raw emotion – that authorities in the leafy south are faring far better than big cities such as Sheffield.

...

This crisis is so grave that the local MP might normally protest to the government. Perhaps, to be charitable, he has already done so privately. But, then, Nick Clegg is deputy prime minister. Much as he might like – belatedly, Lib-Dems are trying to distance themselves from the coalition’s excesses – he cannot realistically dissociate himself from the actions of communities and local government secretary Eric Pickles. Since 2010, a Lib Dem MP has held a ministerial post in Pickles’ department. I don’t recall any resignations.

...


http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... ent-crisis

Good to see the yellow tories recognised as the party of (destroying) local government in the graun of all places.
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7815  Postby Tortured_Genius » Nov 16, 2014 10:07 pm

D'oh post - please ignore :o
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7816  Postby chairman bill » Nov 16, 2014 10:50 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:... As it happens, the government is already taking steps to ban exclusivity clauses.


It's a major strand of their employment strategy - get as many people as possible to have more than one zero-hours contract, so they can claim that the UK is swimming in new jobs, and there's so many to go round that some people have three or four of them.
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7817  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 16, 2014 11:18 pm

They do say insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results, but still... evidence?
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7818  Postby chairman bill » Nov 16, 2014 11:25 pm

Evidence? You mean, I couldn't possibly be taking the piss?
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7819  Postby OlivierK » Nov 17, 2014 12:11 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
mrjonno wrote:With ZHC it's very simple , if you want to be a temp without guaranteed work that is fine just make it illegal for any company to prevent you from working for someone else.

The benefits system also needs to reform itself as it takes far too long to processs change


I find myself in a rare moment of complete agreement with a mrjonno post. As it happens, the government is already taking steps to ban exclusivity clauses.

Taking steps? After 90% of a five year term? Sounds like the government is deeply committed to this!
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Re: UK Coalition watch

#7820  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 17, 2014 2:36 am

OlivierK wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:
mrjonno wrote:With ZHC it's very simple , if you want to be a temp without guaranteed work that is fine just make it illegal for any company to prevent you from working for someone else.

The benefits system also needs to reform itself as it takes far too long to processs change


I find myself in a rare moment of complete agreement with a mrjonno post. As it happens, the government is already taking steps to ban exclusivity clauses.


Taking steps? After 90% of a five year term? Sounds like the government is deeply committed to this!


Perhaps you'd prefer that they didn't bother, like the last, 13 year, Labour government?

Seriously, of all the stupid, synthetic objections.
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