UK Labour Party Watch

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UK Labour Party Watch

#1  Postby Strontium Dog » Jun 22, 2012 6:14 pm

I always meant to start this topic as a counterpart to the Coalition Watch thread, now in its 65th page of febrile angst and hyperbole. After all, there's so much more to say about the people who wrecked the country's economy than the people who have the Herculean task of fixing it. But here it is now, better late than never, as I'm sure you'll all agree :)

First up: Labour is reverting to populist type and "getting tough" on immigration.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 73414.html

This week, Labour is re-engaging with the immigration debate. So yesterday we saw the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, apologising for her party's failure to introduce tougher controls on migrants while in office. We did not do enough to address people's concerns on the subject, she bleated, while inevitably attacking the Government and demanding tighter restrictions.

This is an important moment. Here is a party, remember, that had a Home Secretary who talked of Britain being "swamped" with migrants and a Prime Minister who borrowed the language of the British National Party. At the last election, it had the most hostile manifesto on the subject. Yet still it feels compelled to say it has been too weak.
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Re: Labour Party Watch

#2  Postby chairman bill » Jun 22, 2012 6:16 pm

Shameful pandering to a racist agenda.

BTW, I've ignored your trolling comments.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3  Postby Jakov » Jun 22, 2012 7:13 pm

Here's a criticism for you, Labour are not left-wing enough!

I already posted this on the other thread but it's more fitting here.
Labour have expelled people from the party for opposing cuts.

By now, I felt I can't do this anymore, and in Nov 2011 I stated my opposition to the cuts in the B&D Post newspaper. Then an anonymous comment from a council spokesperson appeared, repeating the 'tough decisions' line. I gave an interview to Socialist Worker on why I resigned, and I lost the Labour whip in early January 2012. I was told I must 'recant' in order to be re-registered as a Labour Councillor. I refused and was expelled from the Labour Party.


For all Labour's talk of being against austerity, they would still implement budget cuts of 7% (as opposed to the Tory 10% cuts)



Unlike it's European counterparts, Labour was not founded by people calling themselves socialists. The famous Clause Four was only enacted due to pressure from radicals after the Russian Revolution.

Why did Labour nationalise all these industries? They did so mostly because they were not making profits for their bosses. After the war and the pre-war experiences of the Great Depression, British capitalism was in a bad way. Industry was crumbling and needed replacing. Industry that had been destroyed in the war needed rebuilding. If private capital remained tied up in the loss making mines and railways it could not be used to reconstruct British capitalism. The obvious answer was to nationalise. In return for their ownership of particular firms, the ruling class were given lavish compensation which could then be invested in other, more profitable industries.

A good example of this was with the nationalisation of the Bank of England. Stockholders were guaranteed the right to continue to receive a 12% dividend on their investment, even after the Bank was taken into state ownership.

[...]

They showed just whose side they were on in the docks. Just like in 1924, Labour had to deal with a dockers strike. This was in October 1945. The strike was unofficial. Both union leaders and Labour MPs told them to go back to work. But the men, who had suffered big wage cuts after the war ended, carried on with their strike. What was Labour"s response? They sent troops into the London docks to break the strike. They repeated this tactic many times in the course of their government. Indeed it is a regular feature of Labour in power that it uses troops to break strikes. It did it in the 1970s against the fire fighters, the bin men and others.

http://libcom.org/library/labouring-vain
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#4  Postby Beatsong » Jun 22, 2012 7:27 pm

That sucks. Kneejerk anti-immigrant xenophobia is one of the worst traits of the tories where I live. Hate to think of Labour being the same way.

Anyone got a link to the original Yvette Cooper statement that the article is responding to? I must have missed it.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#6  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 23, 2012 10:16 am

Why did so many east Europeans go to Britain?

UK is a soft touch. Simply that.
Also the fact that almost all other EU countries imposed restrictions on the numbers coming into their countries.
So if the UK had imposed immigration restrictions it would been following the rest of the EU.
When the east European countries first joined they did not get full membership. Rumania and Slovakia are still in that boat.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#7  Postby mrjonno » Jun 23, 2012 10:35 am

Who cares what Labour says (its about as relevant as what the Lib Dem's say), they are the opposition and should just be trying to find Government scandals and just keeping quiet avoiding saying anything controversial. Its how Cameron got into power
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#8  Postby CarlPierce » Jun 25, 2012 12:15 pm



Labour - the principled party fighting against Murdoch !!!!


In other news turns out former Labour leader Tony Bliar has been paying just THREE percent of his income in tax.

But of course it is all above board and only a fool would question the dossier of financial evidence.

Now how did he get all this income ? Maybe for being a 'war hero' in the eyes of the US and some Arab states.



So he made a dodgy dossier, killed a scientist or two and started an illegal war knowing full well it would mean £££££ later.
For his 'faith' foundation.
A chip off the old Labour block - he will star in a bond film next - as Blofeld except this time the villian wins !!!
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#9  Postby ED209 » Jun 25, 2012 12:46 pm

What a strange post :scratch:

CarlPierce wrote:

In other news turns out former Labour leader Tony Bliar has been paying just THREE percent of his income in tax.



The link doesn't substantiate your statement at all. It's really quite nonsensical. Firstly it's talking about the corporation tax paid by blair's company, and tries to relate that to its turnover even though turnover is not taxed and profits chargeable to corporation tax of £1m from turnover of £12m is actually comparatively high. I'm not sure what rate of corporation tax you are implying should be paid on the company's declared profits or why it should be different to any other company :dunno:

And after all that, none of us have the first clue how much tax he pays on his own income, however much that is. When were your lot going to publish their tax returns like they promised, again?

The quality of this thread is really going to have to improve if it is to ever accrue even a tiny fraction of the popularity and longevity of the original coalition watch one, tbh :coffee:
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#10  Postby CarlPierce » Jun 25, 2012 1:01 pm

ED209 wrote:What a strange post :scratch:

CarlPierce wrote:

In other news turns out former Labour leader Tony Bliar has been paying just THREE percent of his income in tax.



The link doesn't substantiate your statement at all. It's really quite nonsensical. Firstly it's talking about the corporation tax paid by blair's company, and tries to relate that to its turnover even though turnover is not taxed and profits chargeable to corporation tax of £1m from turnover of £12m is actually comparatively high. I'm not sure what rate of corporation tax you are implying should be paid on the company's declared profits or why it should be different to any other company :dunno:

And after all that, none of us have the first clue how much tax he pays on his own income, however much that is. When were your lot going to publish their tax returns like they promised, again?

The quality of this thread is really going to have to improve if it is to ever accrue even a tiny fraction of the popularity and longevity of the original coalition watch one, tbh :coffee:


Strange in what way ?
The 'quality' and intent is identical to the co watch thread.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#11  Postby chairman bill » Jun 25, 2012 1:06 pm

CarlPierce wrote:... The 'quality' and intent is identical to the co watch thread.


No it's not. One is targetted at a government, the other at one party. And your only intention is to sling shit, not offer critique of policy decisions.

Try again.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#12  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 25, 2012 1:19 pm

And a party that is not in power. So what it says and does is of no consequence. :nono:
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#13  Postby ED209 » Jun 25, 2012 1:21 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:And a party that is not in power. So what it says and does is of no consequence. :nono:


:this:

I suspect the only reason any of us are here at all is because the proper thread is locked at the moment. Oh that we had something of substance to discuss. Anyone see the football? Tsk, eh?
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#14  Postby Beatsong » Jun 25, 2012 9:39 pm

chairman bill wrote:
CarlPierce wrote:... The 'quality' and intent is identical to the co watch thread.


No it's not. One is targetted at a government, the other at one party. And your only intention is to sling shit, not offer critique of policy decisions.

Try again.


I don't have a problem with this thread but it's a bit of a damp squib in terms of what SD seemed to intend. Starts us off with a rousing critique of Labour comments about immigration and three of the "usual suspects" simply agree with him. Then Carl tries a dig at Blair which turns out to be based on shaky information - but that doesn't matter because most of us hate Blair anyway so if the dig was justified, we'd be only too happy to agree with that too.

SD just doesn't seem to get that most people here aren't interested in his kind of tribalism. We don't work for political parties and don't have any constraints or agendas preventing us from criticising ANY of them, or certainly from criticising any particular actions taken by particular individuals within them. Plenty of us have voted lib dem at various times.

I really don't see the point. As far as I'm concerned the Labour party are, taken as a whole, the least bad option for me to vote for at the moment. That's the sum total of my "allegience" to them, if you can call it that. It wasn't what I thought in 2005 and if things change dramatically in the future, it may not be what I think then either. I don't say that Clegg is a spineless tosser for abstaining on a vote about a subject he has a clear declared position on because I'm desparate to get one over on his party; I say it because it's a clearly spineless thing to do.

I can't speak for anyone else but contrary to what SD seems to think, I'm not actually rubbing my hands with glee at the demise of the lib dems' credibility, I actually thought it was healthy to have another voice in the mix about how to make society fairer and better, and I voted Yes in the PR referendum to facilitate that without too much splitting of the left. But they are now pretty much indistinguishable from the tories, and they have shown themselves to be happy with a vision of society based on naive American-style freemarket mythology while the needy can go fuck themselves. That just makes me sad.

And angry, like most of their membership.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#15  Postby Tortured_Genius » Jun 25, 2012 9:48 pm

Beatsong wrote:SD just doesn't seem to get that most people here aren't interested in his kind of tribalism. We don't work for political parties and don't have any constraints or agendas preventing us from criticising ANY of them, or certainly from criticising any particular actions taken by particular individuals within them. Plenty of us have voted lib dem at various times.

I really don't see the point. As far as I'm concerned the Labour party are, taken as a whole, the least bad option for me to vote for at the moment. That's the sum total of my "allegience" to them, if you can call it that. It wasn't what I thought in 2005 and if things change dramatically in the future, it may not be what I think then either. I don't say that Clegg is a spineless tosser for abstaining on a vote about a subject he has a clear declared position on because I'm desparate to get one over on his party; I say it because it's a clearly spineless thing to do.

I can't speak for anyone else but contrary to what SD seems to think, I'm not actually rubbing my hands with glee at the demise of the lib dems' credibility, I actually thought it was healthy to have another voice in the mix about how to make society fairer and better, and I voted Yes in the PR referendum to facilitate that without too much splitting of the left. But they are now pretty much indistinguishable from the tories, and they have shown themselves to be happy with a vision of society based on naive American-style freemarket mythology while the needy can go fuck themselves. That just makes me sad.

And angry, like most of their membership.


Thanks Beatsong for putting that down. That sums up my own position as well! :cheers:
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#16  Postby Strontium Dog » Jun 25, 2012 9:57 pm

Beatsong wrote:I really don't see the point. As far as I'm concerned the Labour party are, taken as a whole, the least bad option for me to vote for at the moment.


Well, that second sentence pretty much is the point. You might consider them the "least bad option" at the moment but if this forum has any kind of influence on your politics at all, then you are at least partly basing your stance on one-sided information.

All this thread is about is providing some kind of balance. Balance is good. The one thing I don't want is for the thread to devolve into mindless petty tribalism or regurgitated propaganda. There will be occasions when I think Labour are in the right and the Lib Dems in the wrong. I will have no hesitation in posting that kind of thing here either, assuming someone else doesn't beat me to it.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#17  Postby Beatsong » Jun 25, 2012 10:17 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Beatsong wrote:I really don't see the point. As far as I'm concerned the Labour party are, taken as a whole, the least bad option for me to vote for at the moment.


Well, that second sentence pretty much is the point. You might consider them the "least bad option" at the moment but if this forum has any kind of influence on your politics at all, then you are at least partly basing your stance on one-sided information.


Fair enough. it's certainly true that the political balance of this forum is largely skewed to the left. I've said before that I actually think too much consensus can be a bad thing. I'm actually glad for the presence of some of the right wing Americans like lak lak and Warren Jew, who make some pretty strong arguments from that side of the table.

There will be occasions when I think Labour are in the right and the Lib Dems in the wrong.


Can you name one?
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#18  Postby andyx1205 » Jun 25, 2012 10:19 pm

Image
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#19  Postby Curli » Jun 25, 2012 10:36 pm

We should be watching all the UK parties after all they all are just shit so it's common sense. Of course I exclude the Monster Raving Loony Party, because they are sound policies for a better custard. :)

Seriously in the last 30 years politics is like watching the Benny Hill show, you're not quite sure why you watch it, and it's certainly not as funny as you would like, but at least you get to see some tits. :)
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