Ukraine

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Re: Ukraine

#741  Postby Warren Dew » Mar 14, 2015 2:20 am

proudfootz wrote:
Cthulhu's Trilby wrote:
proudfootz wrote:Russia is facing an existential threat.

If Russians are defending Russians in Ukraine and defending Russia - what do people expect?

They should sit there quietly while the unprovoked aggression proceeds?

Yeah, I dunno. This seems like a justification for the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Cuba was no threat to the US - just some Cubans wanted Cuba to be run for the benefit of the Cubans.

Good argument for the U.S. putting IRBMs in Ukraine, since that would make it "no threat to Russia" by your definition.
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Re: Ukraine

#742  Postby Mike_L » Mar 14, 2015 8:23 am

Khrushchev's deployment of missiles in Cuba was actually in response to America's menacing nuclear presence in Europe (pointing toward the USSR) and to its attempts to overthrow the Cuban government.

Wikipedia...
In response to the failed Bay of Pigs invasion of 1961, and the presence of American Jupiter ballistic missiles in Italy and Turkey against the USSR with Moscow within range, Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev decided to agree to Cuba's request to place nuclear missiles in Cuba to deter future harassment of Cuba. An agreement was reached during a secret meeting between Khrushchev and Fidel Castro in July and construction on a number of missile sites started later that summer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

Indeed one can draw parallels between then and now. Putin's actions are very much in response to what he sees as NATO encroachment on Russia's borders, including the progressive installation of a "missile defense shield"...
In April 2007, NATO's European allies called for a NATO missile defence system which would complement the American national missile defense system to protect Europe from missile attacks and NATO's decision-making North Atlantic Council held consultations on missile defence in the first meeting on the topic at such a senior level. In response, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin claimed that such a deployment could lead to a new arms race and could enhance the likelihood of mutual destruction. He also suggested that his country would freeze its compliance with the 1990 Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe (CFE)—which limits military deployments across the continent—until all NATO countries had ratified the adapted CFE treaty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_missile_defence_system
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Re: Ukraine

#743  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 14, 2015 10:26 am

The hawks just cant leave Russia alone. It has become a phobia. In their childish eyes they can place missiles all over Europe aimed at Russia and nobody should say anything but oh boy if Russia places any facing the west that is aggression.

It is time to disband NATO as it is a dinosaur. It purpose has been achieved and it is now outdated. The cold war was over but this organisation is seeking to justify its existence by ensuring enough scares exist on the borders with Russia so as to create a phony cold war.

By issuing such military intelligence as already appeared in this thread and ranking up tension they do think they can all hold to their positions by the trough. The old war horses are no longer required and should be put out to pasture.

A new pan-European peace and trade treaty should replace it. It would give world stability and even make the peoples in the middle east think very carefully what they are doing.

It is really a time to turn spears into plough shears.
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Re: Ukraine

#744  Postby proudfootz » Mar 14, 2015 7:59 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Cthulhu's Trilby wrote:
proudfootz wrote:Russia is facing an existential threat.

If Russians are defending Russians in Ukraine and defending Russia - what do people expect?

They should sit there quietly while the unprovoked aggression proceeds?

Yeah, I dunno. This seems like a justification for the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Cuba was no threat to the US - just some Cubans wanted Cuba to be run for the benefit of the Cubans.

Good argument for the U.S. putting IRBMs in Ukraine, since that would make it "no threat to Russia" by your definition.


It's too bad you have about zero knowledge about history, otherwise you wouldn't humiliate yourself like this.

The missiles were put there after the Bay of Pigs.

Before and after - good concepts to learn to differentiate. :thumbup:
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Re: Ukraine

#745  Postby proudfootz » Mar 14, 2015 8:01 pm

Varangian wrote:Cute - quoting the World Socialist Web Site. About as unbiased it can get... As for human lives, it appears you don't think those who have fallen for Russian bullets to be worth of notice. I guess you think the Ukrainians shot down MH17, too.


Cute! Poisoning the well since you have no rational argument. :yuk:
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Re: Ukraine

#746  Postby Warren Dew » Mar 15, 2015 12:39 am

proudfootz wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Cthulhu's Trilby wrote:
Yeah, I dunno. This seems like a justification for the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Cuba was no threat to the US - just some Cubans wanted Cuba to be run for the benefit of the Cubans.

Good argument for the U.S. putting IRBMs in Ukraine, since that would make it "no threat to Russia" by your definition.

It's too bad you have about zero knowledge about history, otherwise you wouldn't humiliate yourself like this.

The missiles were put there after the Bay of Pigs.

Before and after - good concepts to learn to differentiate. :thumbup:

Potential threats are still threats. Good concept for you to learn!
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Re: Ukraine

#747  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 15, 2015 9:48 am

Warren Dew wrote:Potential threats are still threats. Good concept for you to learn!


Real military intelligence speak. A vague assertion once again. Do you believe everything the hawks are saying?

Just what is a "potential threat" and when does it become an actual threat?

It is not a good concept to learn as it leads to biased thinking. Or is that a concept too far.
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Re: Ukraine

#748  Postby Varangian » Mar 15, 2015 10:13 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:Potential threats are still threats. Good concept for you to learn!


Real military intelligence speak. A vague assertion once again. Do you believe everything the hawks are saying?

Just what is a "potential threat" and when does it become an actual threat?

It is not a good concept to learn as it leads to biased thinking. Or is that a concept too far.

Scot, have you served, or do you have any other insights in military matters? The quoted report is factual, but without a chair on the Russian general staff or a spy, it cannot draw any definite conclusions as to what the Russians intend. What's hawkish about it? Or could it just be that you are spouting opinionated bollocks again?
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Re: Ukraine

#749  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 15, 2015 10:24 am

Varangian wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:Potential threats are still threats. Good concept for you to learn!


Real military intelligence speak. A vague assertion once again. Do you believe everything the hawks are saying?

Just what is a "potential threat" and when does it become an actual threat?

It is not a good concept to learn as it leads to biased thinking. Or is that a concept too far.

Scot, have you served, or do you have any other insights in military matters? The quoted report is factual, but without a chair on the Russian general staff or a spy,it cannot draw any definite conclusions as to what the Russians intend. What's hawkish about it? Or could it just be that you are spouting opinionated bollocks again?


I am a child of the cold war. I did have a teacher at school who was ex-military intelligence and it was him that made us aware of military intelligence speak and its perceived goal.
So why state that it is a potential threat when they dont know it is a threat. Or cant you see how that is ranking up tension. Reading to many right wing papers maybe? They love to print this crap as truth. Just analyse what is being spouted by the American an British hawks critically. Miss out the vague wording and hawkish nuances. The reports then become pointless.
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Re: Ukraine

#750  Postby proudfootz » Mar 15, 2015 10:35 am

Warren Dew wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Cuba was no threat to the US - just some Cubans wanted Cuba to be run for the benefit of the Cubans.

Good argument for the U.S. putting IRBMs in Ukraine, since that would make it "no threat to Russia" by your definition.

It's too bad you have about zero knowledge about history, otherwise you wouldn't humiliate yourself like this.

The missiles were put there after the Bay of Pigs.

Before and after - good concepts to learn to differentiate. :thumbup:

Potential threats are still threats. Good concept for you to learn!


Good argument for grabbing your gun and shooting random people in the streets! :thumbup:
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Re: Ukraine

#751  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 15, 2015 10:39 am

proudfootz wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Good argument for the U.S. putting IRBMs in Ukraine, since that would make it "no threat to Russia" by your definition.

It's too bad you have about zero knowledge about history, otherwise you wouldn't humiliate yourself like this.

The missiles were put there after the Bay of Pigs.

Before and after - good concepts to learn to differentiate. :thumbup:

Potential threats are still threats. Good concept for you to learn!


Good argument for grabbing your gun and shooting random people in the streets! :thumbup:


Exactly! Using that logic everyone everywhere is a potential threat.

Like I asked already: "What is a potential threat"?
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Re: Ukraine

#752  Postby Varangian » Mar 15, 2015 11:03 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Varangian wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:Potential threats are still threats. Good concept for you to learn!


Real military intelligence speak. A vague assertion once again. Do you believe everything the hawks are saying?

Just what is a "potential threat" and when does it become an actual threat?

It is not a good concept to learn as it leads to biased thinking. Or is that a concept too far.

Scot, have you served, or do you have any other insights in military matters? The quoted report is factual, but without a chair on the Russian general staff or a spy,it cannot draw any definite conclusions as to what the Russians intend. What's hawkish about it? Or could it just be that you are spouting opinionated bollocks again?


I am a child of the cold war. I did have a teacher at school who was ex-military intelligence and it was him that made us aware of military intelligence speak and its perceived goal.
So why state that it is a potential threat when they dont know it is a threat. Or cant you see how that is ranking up tension. Reading to many right wing papers maybe? They love to print this crap as truth. Just analyse what is being spouted by the American an British hawks critically. Miss out the vague wording and hawkish nuances. The reports then become pointless.

Are you just sore after I handed your ass to you? You seemed to question the fact that there are Russian troops in Ukraine, and now you try to discredit the report.
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Re: Ukraine

#753  Postby Made of Stars » Mar 15, 2015 11:12 am

I'm betting Putin is 'on holiday' in Eastern Ukraine right now. :coffee:
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Re: Ukraine

#754  Postby Varangian » Mar 15, 2015 12:20 pm

From the report:

Relocation of Russian and rebel forces from the Debaltseve area to
concentrations north and east of Mariupol indicate that this option is certainly
being considered in the Kremlin. Should this be the case, a further escalation
of hostilities and a Russian military push to expand rebel-controlled territory
remains a realistic possibility.


Tweet from Conflict Reporter today:

#BreakingNews
Russian forces in #Sakhanka are heavily firing with 120 mm mortars and small arms since 6:15 this morning.
#UkraineUnderAttack


Sakhanka is about 25 km east of Mariupol.

Yes, the hawks have acted - the hawks in the Kremlin.
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Re: Ukraine

#755  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 15, 2015 3:06 pm

Varangian wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Varangian wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:

Real military intelligence speak. A vague assertion once again. Do you believe everything the hawks are saying?

Just what is a "potential threat" and when does it become an actual threat?

It is not a good concept to learn as it leads to biased thinking. Or is that a concept too far.

Scot, have you served, or do you have any other insights in military matters? The quoted report is factual, but without a chair on the Russian general staff or a spy,it cannot draw any definite conclusions as to what the Russians intend. What's hawkish about it? Or could it just be that you are spouting opinionated bollocks again?


I am a child of the cold war. I did have a teacher at school who was ex-military intelligence and it was him that made us aware of military intelligence speak and its perceived goal.
So why state that it is a potential threat when they dont know it is a threat. Or cant you see how that is ranking up tension. Reading to many right wing papers maybe? They love to print this crap as truth. Just analyse what is being spouted by the American an British hawks critically. Miss out the vague wording and hawkish nuances. The reports then become pointless.

Are you just sore after I handed your ass to you? You seemed to question the fact that there are Russian troops in Ukraine, and now you try to discredit the report.


:rofl: You did what? :rofl:

Really. Propaganda and you fell for it. The RUSI has no other purpose or dont you know that. You fell for the propaganda. :lol:
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Re: Ukraine

#756  Postby tuco » Jan 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Google translate:

US close to signing with the Russian "big deal" regarding Ukraine - Nightingale
Kremlin administration deal with Trump, among other things, implies the recognition of the former Soviet Union (except the Baltic states) zone of Russian influence.

With respect to the United States of Ukraine asked to give assurances that the Russian did not take over Ukraine. And then let the two neighboring countries themselves agree among themselves.

This is a Russian political expert Valery Nightingale wrote in his with Facebook .

He said Moscow expects that the personal meeting between Putin and Trump will be marked by mutual understanding, able to be a prerequisite of strategic transactions.

"The new US administration are influential people who believe that the agreement with Russia correspond to the national interests of the USA. The expert study of these agreements has already begun ", - he writes


http://hvylya.net/news/exclusive/ssha-b ... lovey.html
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Re: Ukraine

#757  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 31, 2017 10:14 am

I am quite sure there will be an agreement as there is so much money involved for Putin and Trump.
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Re: Ukraine

#758  Postby fisherman » Feb 04, 2017 3:33 pm

tuco wrote:Google translate:

US close to signing with the Russian "big deal" regarding Ukraine - Nightingale

http://hvylya.net/news/exclusive/ssha-b ... lovey.html


This deal doesn't appear likely to happen any time soon if Nikki Haley's comments at the UN are anything to go by.



ETA: It is good to see that the rhetoric being used is a continuation of that seen from the last administration.
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Re: Ukraine

#759  Postby Agrippina » Feb 05, 2017 9:57 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:I am quite sure there will be an agreement as there is so much money involved for Putin and Trump.



Although this confuses me. Won't Trump have a hissy-fit about this:

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/saudi-arabia-has-lost-asia-russia-now-chinas-biggest-oil-partner/ri12611
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Re: Ukraine

#760  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 05, 2017 11:35 am

Agrippina wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:I am quite sure there will be an agreement as there is so much money involved for Putin and Trump.



Although this confuses me. Won't Trump have a hissy-fit about this:

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/saudi-arabia-has-lost-asia-russia-now-chinas-biggest-oil-partner/ri12611


Mind you this report is a year old Aggie. Is it still valid.
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