What Happened to Sandra Bland?

Blood · **#141** by **Blood** » Jul 30, 2015 1:05 pm

Did she have any indication by Monday morning that she would have the bail money and would be released soon?

If not, that strengthens the case for suicide.

Nicko · **#142** by **Nicko** » Jul 30, 2015 1:14 pm

willhud9 wrote:Well in light of all the cases of police abuse acting angry or frustrated at a cop is a pretty stupid thing to do no matter how justified said anger or frustration may be.

Again I will say it as I have said it in other police threads. If a cop pulls you over and you are annoyed at it stomachs your annoyance and be polite and courteous and complying unless the cop asks you to do something illegal such as strip, etc.

A cop has all legal authority to get you out of a motor vehicle on the road. If a cop asks you to get out of the car you don't refuse, you ask am I being detained? If not than you ask why am I not free to go? You don't huff and puff. If you get out of the car and the cop arrests you than you immediately request a lawyer (even if you cannot pay) and you remain silent until you get to jail.

Once you talk to your lawyer and are released from jail THAN do you fight. When you go to court you present the evidence that the cop was being unreasonable and belligerent. You present the evidence that you complied with orders even ones as trivial as putting out a cigarette.

While this most certainly doesn't excuse cops from being assholes it does prevent more people from being abused by assholish cops. So was Sandra Bland being unreasonable? No, but her actions were not very wise and she should have known it.

Still the cops fault though.

I pretty much agree with this.

There are definitely things Bland could have done better - "Am I free to go?" is the magic question - but it's important to realise none of that obviates the officer's responsibility for creating an "offence" out of nothing.

Blood · **#143** by **Blood** » Jul 30, 2015 1:19 pm

The case is useful for demonstrating how myths develop. People cannot accept that an ordinary cop made an ordinary traffic stop that escalated, something that happens every day. No, there must be sinister overtones from the beginning in which all sorts of paranoid fantasies are projected onto the situation.

1. The cop saw a black woman in a car. That's why he made the U-turn.
No, the cop made the U-turn because he was temporarily on a university campus. The campus have their own police; his jurisdiction is state highways and roads in the area. The cop knew that it was a black college and a largely black area, therefore there was nothing exceptional about a black person driving by him.

2. The cop saw the car had Illinois plates. That made him tail the car.
No, the cop was used to seeing out of state license plates. It's a university area with a lot of out of state plates.

3. The video was edited.
No, dash cam video is unstable. If you watch the video, you notice 'jumps' even in the beginning, when Encinia is talking to the other driver.

4. Bland was arrested and thrown in jail for a minor traffic violation.
No, she was arrested for assaulting a police officer. We can debate the legality or appropriateness of that charge, but that IS what she was charged with, and why she was in jail -- not failing to signal.

Teague · **#144** by **Teague** » Jul 30, 2015 1:42 pm

You mean she was charged with that AFTER the cop changed his story and what a lot of BS assertion you have going on up there.

Warren Dew · **#145** by **Warren Dew** » Jul 30, 2015 2:00 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote: The cop had every right and a responsibility to treat Bland's belligerence and resistance with sternness and force.

I didn't realise the US was an authoritarian regime.

Now you know.

If every policeman in the UK would handle that situation perfectly, ignoring insults and staying polite - which is possible, UK police seem unusually well behaved - then I think it's the UK that's unusual in this respect, not the US.

Teague · **#146** by **Teague** » Jul 30, 2015 2:08 pm

Another Woman Is Dead Because Police Ignored Her

Published on 29 Jul 2015

After Sandra Bland was found hanging from a jail cell now there are more and more stories involving women of color who are found dead in either a holding cell, a jail cell or in custody. The latest story involves a woman from South Dakota who’s actually a Native American. On July 6th, the death of Sarah Lee Circle Bear did make headlines, although it hasn’t gotten as much press attention as other stories.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/quit-fa ... d-in-jail/

Scot Dutchy · **#147** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jul 30, 2015 5:52 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote: The cop had every right and a responsibility to treat Bland's belligerence and resistance with sternness and force.

I didn't realise the US was an authoritarian regime.

Now you know.

If every policeman in the UK would handle that situation perfectly, ignoring insults and staying polite - which is possible, UK police seem unusually well behaved - then I think it's the UK that's unusual in this respect, not the US.

No country in Western Europe police services are ever as bad as the American law enforcement agencies. America is unique not the other way round.
I think in most West European countries the police would have handled the situation much better than those American ill-trained law enforcers.

noncredo · **#148** by **noncredo** » Jul 30, 2015 6:04 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote: The cop had every right and a responsibility to treat Bland's belligerence and resistance with sternness and force.

I didn't realise the US was an authoritarian regime.

Now you know.

If every policeman in the UK would handle that situation perfectly, ignoring insults and staying polite - which is possible, UK police seem unusually well behaved - then I think it's the UK that's unusual in this respect, not the US.

No country in Western Europe police services are ever as bad as the American law enforcement agencies. America is unique not the other way round.
I think in most West European countries the police would have handled the situation much better than those American ill-trained law enforcers.

Well that's because your country is so awesome and my country is so third world. I sure wish we could be more like your country. That would be the the best.

Macdoc · **#149** by **Macdoc** » Jul 30, 2015 7:15 pm

I didn't realise the US was an authoritarian regime.

Yeah has been for a while...you should recognize quite few "symptoms" here.....one only has to note the number of flags... :roll:

14 Points of fascism: The warning signs

In his original article, "Fascism Anyone?", Laurence Britt (interview) compared the regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet and identified 14 characteristics common to those fascist regimes. This page is a collection of news articles dating from the start of the Bush presidency divided into topics relating to each of the 14 points of fascism. Further analysis of American Fascism done by the POAC can be read here.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Number 12

12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
Citizens who have done no more than criticize the president are being banned from airline flights, harassed at airports’, strip searched, roughed up and even imprisoned
The 10 most outrageous civil liberties violations of 2006
The United States has now become the world leader in its rate of incarceration, locking up its citizens at 5-8 times the rate of other industrialized nations.
American Gestapo is here: "There is hereby created and established a permanent police force, to be known as the 'United States Secret Service Uniformed Division.'"
America: secret jails, secret courts, secret arrests, and now secret laws
Snitch-or-Go-to-Jail bill will make pretty much anything short of reporting on everyone you see for doing just about anything a jailable offense. With minimum sentences, up to and including life without parole.
The problem with Gonzales is that he has been deeply involved in developing some of the most sweeping claims of near-dictatorial presidential power in our nation's history, allowing him to imprison and even (at least in theory) torture anyone in the world, at any time
Police officers don't have to give a reason at the time they arrest someone, the U.S. Supreme Court said in a ruling that shields officers from false-arrest lawsuits.

still gonna defend the "home of the free" ????.....I see you are FINALLY free to visit Cuba :coffee:

noncredo · **#150** by **noncredo** » Jul 30, 2015 7:29 pm

Macdoc wrote:

still gonna defend the "home of the free" ????.....I see you are FINALLY free to visit Cuba

Well, not really. The government has determined that there are only 12 reasons we can visit Cuba. If we are going for one of those 12 reasons we can start to jump through the appropriate hoops. If not, we can still travel to Cuba from another country, slip the customs official in Cuba a twenty and hope he doesn't stamp the passport. We've always been free to travel to Cuba as long as we're not caught traveling to Cuba.

Edit. But it's for our own good. Our beloved leaders always have our best interest in mind when they restrict gently guide our vacation destination choices.

Macdoc · **#151** by **Macdoc** » Jul 30, 2015 7:32 pm

noncredo · **#152** by **noncredo** » Jul 30, 2015 7:38 pm

But I am free to complain about not being free to travel to Cuba. You don't have that freedom do you?

Macdoc · **#153** by **Macdoc** » Jul 30, 2015 10:43 pm

Not sure what you are referring to but there are plenty of protests and complaints by the public and our girls are free to go topless.....top that

Women's topless court victory 20 years later - Canada - CBC ...
www.cbc.ca/.../canada/women-s-topless-c ... ater-1.1...
Jul 20, 2011 - By removing her top, she drew attention to the double-standard in law that deemed it acceptable for men, but not women, to go bare-chested.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/women-s-t ... -1.1026403

noncredo · **#154** by **noncredo** » Jul 30, 2015 10:45 pm

Macdoc wrote:Not sure what you are referring to but there are plenty of protests and complaints by the public and our girls are free to go topless.....top that
Women's topless court victory 20 years later - Canada - CBC ...
http://www.cbc.ca/.../canada/women-s-to ... ater-1.1...
Jul 20, 2011 - By removing her top, she drew attention to the double-standard in law that deemed it acceptable for men, but not women, to go bare-chested.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/women-s-t ... -1.1026403

Well how could I?

Spearthrower · **#155** by **Spearthrower** » Jul 31, 2015 12:05 am

Nicko wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Well in light of all the cases of police abuse acting angry or frustrated at a cop is a pretty stupid thing to do no matter how justified said anger or frustration may be.

Again I will say it as I have said it in other police threads. If a cop pulls you over and you are annoyed at it stomachs your annoyance and be polite and courteous and complying unless the cop asks you to do something illegal such as strip, etc.

A cop has all legal authority to get you out of a motor vehicle on the road. If a cop asks you to get out of the car you don't refuse, you ask am I being detained? If not than you ask why am I not free to go? You don't huff and puff. If you get out of the car and the cop arrests you than you immediately request a lawyer (even if you cannot pay) and you remain silent until you get to jail.

Once you talk to your lawyer and are released from jail THAN do you fight. When you go to court you present the evidence that the cop was being unreasonable and belligerent. You present the evidence that you complied with orders even ones as trivial as putting out a cigarette.

While this most certainly doesn't excuse cops from being assholes it does prevent more people from being abused by assholish cops. So was Sandra Bland being unreasonable? No, but her actions were not very wise and she should have known it.

Still the cops fault though.

I pretty much agree with this.

There are definitely things Bland could have done better - "Am I free to go?" is the magic question - but it's important to realise none of that obviates the officer's responsibility for creating an "offence" out of nothing.

While I agree that it is, in principle, wise to comply with a cop - there is also the issue of an expected subservience to their every demand. I've encountered this in many countries, and I think it simply comes back down to the same psychology of the Stanford Prison Experiment - while the majority of cops have gone into the profession to serve their neighborhoods and protect civilians, others get off on having power over others.

Spearthrower · **#156** by **Spearthrower** » Jul 31, 2015 12:09 am

Warren Dew wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote: The cop had every right and a responsibility to treat Bland's belligerence and resistance with sternness and force.

I didn't realise the US was an authoritarian regime.

Now you know.

If every policeman in the UK would handle that situation perfectly, ignoring insults and staying polite - which is possible, UK police seem unusually well behaved - then I think it's the UK that's unusual in this respect, not the US.

You do get a lot of jobsworths in the UK police, but I've never met nor had anyone I know have any kind of trouble with the police.

One thing that I think changes the game considerably is that only specially deployed squads carry firearms - the majority of bobbies on the beat don't, and I think that generally means they're going to work hard to de-escalate the situation.

Don't get me wrong, that would obviously not be realistic in the US.

Spearthrower · **#157** by **Spearthrower** » Jul 31, 2015 12:12 am

Macdoc wrote:Not sure what you are referring to but there are plenty of protests and complaints by the public and our girls are free to go topless.....top that
Women's topless court victory 20 years later - Canada - CBC ...
http://www.cbc.ca/.../canada/women-s-to ... ater-1.1...
Jul 20, 2011 - By removing her top, she drew attention to the double-standard in law that deemed it acceptable for men, but not women, to go bare-chested.

I always thought this was absurd. Both parties have very similar bits on their torsos.

Blood · **#158** by **Blood** » Jul 31, 2015 12:32 am

Teague wrote:You mean she was charged with that AFTER the cop changed his story and what a lot of BS assertion you have going on up there.

Can you point out exactly what "BS assertion" of mine you are talking about, and your refutation of same? Thanks.

willhud9 · **#159** by **willhud9** » Jul 31, 2015 1:05 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Nicko wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Well in light of all the cases of police abuse acting angry or frustrated at a cop is a pretty stupid thing to do no matter how justified said anger or frustration may be.

Again I will say it as I have said it in other police threads. If a cop pulls you over and you are annoyed at it stomachs your annoyance and be polite and courteous and complying unless the cop asks you to do something illegal such as strip, etc.

A cop has all legal authority to get you out of a motor vehicle on the road. If a cop asks you to get out of the car you don't refuse, you ask am I being detained? If not than you ask why am I not free to go? You don't huff and puff. If you get out of the car and the cop arrests you than you immediately request a lawyer (even if you cannot pay) and you remain silent until you get to jail.

Once you talk to your lawyer and are released from jail THAN do you fight. When you go to court you present the evidence that the cop was being unreasonable and belligerent. You present the evidence that you complied with orders even ones as trivial as putting out a cigarette.

While this most certainly doesn't excuse cops from being assholes it does prevent more people from being abused by assholish cops. So was Sandra Bland being unreasonable? No, but her actions were not very wise and she should have known it.

Still the cops fault though.

I pretty much agree with this.

There are definitely things Bland could have done better - "Am I free to go?" is the magic question - but it's important to realise none of that obviates the officer's responsibility for creating an "offence" out of nothing.

While I agree that it is, in principle, wise to comply with a cop - there is also the issue of an expected subservience to their every demand. I've encountered this in many countries, and I think it simply comes back down to the same psychology of the Stanford Prison Experiment - while the majority of cops have gone into the profession to serve their neighborhoods and protect civilians, others get off on having power over others.

True but as the expression goes you don't disturb a hive.

Meaning that cops are people given authority over other people. That naturally leads to individuals (even though they may be in a minority) who get off on having authority over others. As such it generally is not a wise policy to be rude or non-compliant with a person who has a little more nudge than you do and is justified in lethal force at their discretion.

Warren Dew · **#160** by **Warren Dew** » Jul 31, 2015 1:53 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote: The cop had every right and a responsibility to treat Bland's belligerence and resistance with sternness and force.

I didn't realise the US was an authoritarian regime.

Now you know.

If every policeman in the UK would handle that situation perfectly, ignoring insults and staying polite - which is possible, UK police seem unusually well behaved - then I think it's the UK that's unusual in this respect, not the US.

You do get a lot of jobsworths in the UK police, but I've never met nor had anyone I know have any kind of trouble with the police.

One thing that I think changes the game considerably is that only specially deployed squads carry firearms - the majority of bobbies on the beat don't, and I think that generally means they're going to work hard to de-escalate the situation.

Don't get me wrong, that would obviously not be realistic in the US.

Why would it not be realistic in the U.S., or at least parts of the U.S.?

What Happened to Sandra Bland?

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