When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#81  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Jun 13, 2010 3:09 am

Alnilam wrote:Your explanation was hokum and pettifoggery.

Nice, rational argument there.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#82  Postby andyx1205 » Jun 13, 2010 3:13 am

WayOfTheDodo wrote:
Alnilam wrote:Your explanation was hokum and pettifoggery.

Nice, rational argument there.


So, can you link us to the evidence that shows Iran's involvement in 9/11 which led to the War in Afghanistan, which according to you means Iran started the War in Afghanistan?

I'll stop asking if you're willing to admit that you were making up nonsense.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#83  Postby Toontown » Jun 13, 2010 3:14 am

andyx1205 wrote:
Toontown wrote:We know, in part, what Iran is doing now. Iran is, among other things, sending saboteurs into Iraq, launching troop incursions into Iraq, helping it's surrogate Hisbollah maintain it's death grip on Lebanon, enriching far more uranium than it would need to run a reactor, and developing medium and long range offensive missiles, the intended payloads of which remain a matter of ignorance among...well, the willfully ignorant.

And training and equipping a large army.

And dishonestly maintaining it's nominal membership in the NPT while simultaneously refusing to cooperate with the IAEA and the UNSC in violation of it's NPT obligations.

And that's just a sampling of what we know for facts.

And yet there is no empirical evidence that Iran might start a war. None whatsoever. Unless you count the empirical evidence.


There's a difference between giving aid and supplies to terrorists and "starting wars by invading/attacking countries." Canada made some money by selling arms to Indonesia when Suharto invaded East Timor, but that doesn't mean that Canada's financing of terrorists (Indonesia was terrorizing East Timor) makes it more likely for Canada to start a major war by attacking/invading another country.

Poking around in other countries for economic and political reasons is different from outright starting major wars by invading/attacking other countries.


Hitlers aggressions began with a litany of grievances and a deluge of propaganda followed a military buildup and modest, but ominous infiltrations and incursions, during and after which he ridiculed his critics. Ring a bell so far?

From there he progressed to chasing the Czech president around his desk brandishing a document of surrender, then on to the humiliation of the "little worms" at Munich, and then the nonaggression pact with Stalin, and then the crushing of Poland, which touched off the big one.

Has it ever occurred to you that we don't live in a static universe? Germany, for example, in 1935 was an economic and military basket case. Six years later the Nazis had swept across Europe, North Africa, and to the outskirts of Moscow.

Things change, often rapidly. If you are not looking at the trends, then you are not looking at the empirical evidence.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#84  Postby Propagangster » Jun 13, 2010 3:17 am

Toontown wrote:Hitlers aggressions began with a litany of grievances and a deluge of propaganda followed a military buildup and modest, but ominous infiltrations and incursions, during and after which he ridiculed his critics. Ring a bell so far?


It does ring a bell - sounds like the USA of today.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#85  Postby Toontown » Jun 13, 2010 3:51 am

Propagangster wrote:
Toontown wrote:Hitlers aggressions began with a litany of grievances and a deluge of propaganda followed a military buildup and modest, but ominous infiltrations and incursions, during and after which he ridiculed his critics. Ring a bell so far?


It does ring a bell - sounds like the USA of today.


And you remind me of Chamberlain. Is it Peace In Our Time yet?
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#86  Postby Propagangster » Jun 13, 2010 5:07 am

Toontown wrote:
Propagangster wrote:
Toontown wrote:Hitlers aggressions began with a litany of grievances and a deluge of propaganda followed a military buildup and modest, but ominous infiltrations and incursions, during and after which he ridiculed his critics. Ring a bell so far?


It does ring a bell - sounds like the USA of today.


And you remind me of Chamberlain. Is it Peace In Our Time yet?


Is this reference supposed to be insulting to me?
Congratulations - You failed miserably.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#87  Postby Jeffersonian-marxist » Jun 13, 2010 5:25 am

andyx1205 wrote:I haven't shown any empirical evidence? The last time Iran started a war by attacking/invading another country was in the middle of the 1800s. If Iran didn't start a war by attacking/invading another country for 250 years, the chances of it breaking that record are very slim. They're not non-existent, but they're very slim.

The statement "if a country has not invaded another country in a long time, then it is not likely to invade another country in the future" has not been rigorously demonstrated to be true. Indeed, it's only been rigorously assumed to be true.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#88  Postby andyx1205 » Jun 13, 2010 5:30 am

Jeffersonian-marxist wrote:
andyx1205 wrote:I haven't shown any empirical evidence? The last time Iran started a war by attacking/invading another country was in the middle of the 1800s. If Iran didn't start a war by attacking/invading another country for 250 years, the chances of it breaking that record are very slim. They're not non-existent, but they're very slim.

The statement "if a country has not invaded another country in a long time, then it is not likely to invade another country in the future" has not been rigorously demonstrated to be true. Indeed, it's only been rigorously assumed to be true.


What I am trying to say is that there is not much evidence to back up the claim that Iran poses a threat to its neighbours. Extraordinary claims, such as that Iran is building a nuclear weapon for the sole intent of wiping Israel off the map/exterminating Jews, require extraordinary evidence.

Extraordinary claims, such as Israel's P.M. Netanyahu's claim that Ahmadinejad is the next Hitler and that Iran is the next Nazi Germany, require extraordinary evidence.

In another words, there does not seem to be any evidence that points towards the claim that Iran is an aggressive State, and therefore it is irrational to assume that Iran will become an aggressive State in the near future, unless there is substantial evidence that points towards this claim.

So far the arguments are mostly based on an "appeal to emotion" which point toward Iran's religious fundamentalism and support of "terrorist activities" and "terrorist groups." These sort of arguments also contain a lot of double standards that unfairly and unjustly single out Iran.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#89  Postby Jeffersonian-marxist » Jun 13, 2010 5:37 am

andyx1205 wrote:
Jeffersonian-marxist wrote:
andyx1205 wrote:I haven't shown any empirical evidence? The last time Iran started a war by attacking/invading another country was in the middle of the 1800s. If Iran didn't start a war by attacking/invading another country for 250 years, the chances of it breaking that record are very slim. They're not non-existent, but they're very slim.

The statement "if a country has not invaded another country in a long time, then it is not likely to invade another country in the future" has not been rigorously demonstrated to be true. Indeed, it's only been rigorously assumed to be true.


What I am trying to say is that there is not much evidence to back up the claim that Iran poses a threat to its neighbours. Extraordinary claims, such as that Iran is building a nuclear weapon for the sole intent of wiping Israel off the map/exterminating Jews, require extraordinary evidence.

I understand that's what you are trying to do. But in order to use this example, i.e. Iran's history of sovereign peacefulness, for your goal, it must be demonstrated that being peaceful in the past makes it more likely that a country will be peaceful in the future.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#90  Postby Toontown » Jun 13, 2010 5:49 am

Propagangster wrote:
Toontown wrote:
Propagangster wrote:
Toontown wrote:Hitlers aggressions began with a litany of grievances and a deluge of propaganda followed a military buildup and modest, but ominous infiltrations and incursions, during and after which he ridiculed his critics. Ring a bell so far?


It does ring a bell - sounds like the USA of today.


And you remind me of Chamberlain. Is it Peace In Our Time yet?


Is this reference supposed to be insulting to me?
Congratulations - You failed miserably.


It was a response in kind. What did you expect?

I went to all the trouble to explain in good detail many of the disturbing aspects of Iran's behavioral trends, and even a historical parallel, and all you could think to do was the usual fundamentally dishonest U.S.-bashing misdirection play. Signifying nothing.

Fuck it.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#91  Postby Propagangster » Jun 13, 2010 5:59 am

andyx1205 wrote:So far the arguments are mostly based on an "appeal to emotion" which point toward Iran's religious fundamentalism and support of "terrorist activities" and "terrorist groups." These sort of arguments also contain a lot of double standards that unfairly and unjustly single out Iran.


Demonize the enemy - Hey, why not? It still works.

On the other hand, much of the western media is interestingly very silent about the ongoing protest and push for change in Iran, and that the authoritarian regime currently is place is still being challenged. It's almost like we should not know that many Iranians seem ready for basic rights and freedoms, and some level of democratization, and that they have a splendid demographic to make such goals achievable.

Let's face it - People who think America really has it as part of its missions to bring "democracy" to that part of the world need to lay off the kool-aid. That's just a ploy to make the wars more tlerable in the eyes of people here, or make it look like its unpatriotic not to support the wars because people fall back on equating that with being anti-democracy.

What a load of shit.

When push comes to shove, stability will be a lot more important than "democracy" as it always was anyway in our dealings with that part of the world. We don't want democracy there, we want friendly regimes who keep their populations relatively empoverished and powerless so we can keep fucking them over, a tradition of the modern era.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#92  Postby Propagangster » Jun 13, 2010 6:03 am

Toontown wrote:I went to all the trouble to explain in good detail many of the disturbing aspects of Iran's behavioral trends, and even a historical parallel, and all you could think to do was the usual fundamentally dishonest U.S.-bashing misdirection play.


Blah... blah... blah...

Sorry, I got no time for offended virgins. The US is the imperialist power today, and people who still live in denial of that, and the dangers it represents, obviously saw their reality checks bounce.

If stating the obvious about the USA's foreign policy is "US Bashing" so be it - I don't give a shit who gets offended.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#93  Postby Mayak » Jun 13, 2010 6:38 am

Propagangster wrote:
Toontown wrote:I went to all the trouble to explain in good detail many of the disturbing aspects of Iran's behavioral trends, and even a historical parallel, and all you could think to do was the usual fundamentally dishonest U.S.-bashing misdirection play.


Blah... blah... blah...

Sorry, I got no time for offended virgins. The US is the imperialist power today, and people who still live in denial of that, and the dangers it represents, obviously saw their reality checks bounce.

If stating the obvious about the USA's foreign policy is "US Bashing" so be it - I don't give a shit who gets offended.


Image

THE U.S. IS AN IMPERIAL POWER MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN. PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN.

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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#94  Postby andyx1205 » Jun 13, 2010 6:47 am

Are you denying that America has military bases scattered around the world in God knows how many countries?

Btw, I've got a better pic. His name is Mark Twain and he is dubbed the father of modern American literature.
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#95  Postby Virus » Jun 13, 2010 9:21 am

andyx1205 wrote:Are you denying that America has military bases scattered around the world in God knows how many countries?


Those bases are there with the permission of those nation's governments. They can be told to leave at any time. Are you trying to tell us that Australia is occupied by the US?
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#96  Postby Galaxian » Jun 13, 2010 9:22 am

WayOfTheDodo wrote:I think the question is deceptively and artificially narrow.

Then go the way of the Dodo, and start your own f'ing thread; made deceptively & artificially broad! :coffee:
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#97  Postby Galaxian » Jun 13, 2010 9:26 am

Propagangster wrote:If I was part of the Iranian authority, with the world's premier military power right next door occupying Iraq, and maintaining a threatening stance on Iran, I may get involved, indirectly, to some extent to make that conflict a bit more difficult as a means to prevent an invasion against my country - hypothetically speaking.

:clap: :clap: :clap: Infact it would be irresponsible, treason & a dereliction of duty not to avert the threat! :cheers:
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#98  Postby Galaxian » Jun 13, 2010 9:30 am

Mayak wrote:
andyx1205 wrote:
Mayak wrote:Is the reasoning behind the question that since Iran does not have a warmongering past than it will not have a warmongering future?
(if it is then that is then that is pretty damn stupid reasoning)
We do not know if Iran will or will not have a warmongering future. I don't have magical powers that allow me to look into the future. Nonetheless, empirical evidence points towards the hypothesis that a future major war involving Iran is very unlikelyto be initiated by Iran. It may be initiated by Iran, but it is very unlikely.
Evidence?

What a load of crap Mayak! What have you been smoking? So, track record is nothing to go by? Then what is? YOUR gut feeling? IOW, who's more likely to start a war; the USA with a record of dozens, or Iran with zero? :coffee:
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#99  Postby Galaxian » Jun 13, 2010 9:41 am

Toontown wrote:
Propagangster wrote:If I was part of the Iranian authority, with the world's premier military power right next door occupying Iraq, and maintaining a threatening stance on Iran, I may get involved, indirectly, to some extent to make that conflict a bit more difficult as a means to prevent an invasion against my country - hypothetically speaking.
Why? Do you want to be the enemy of the world's premier military power? Do you want it to attack you? That's not very intelligent..........

And further banal rubbish :this:
What do you understand by this statement: "To the extent that you want to live, we want to die!" ?
Nothing? I thought so.
Believe it or not, there ARE some people on this planet who do not want to be prostitutes.
There are some who would prefer death on their feet, to life on their knees.
So, you are threatened by a demonic hegemonistic power that may wipe you out if you resist. By what logic do you arrive at the assumption that this demonic power will love you & cherish you if you do not resist?
Well, the evidence is that if you do NOT resist you will certainly be exterminated. But if you DO resist you have a chance of surviving & thriving.
So my advice to Iran is this: RESIST FOR ALL IT'S WORTH! RESIST TO THE LAST DROP OF YOUR BLOOD! :thumbup:
And all the crap about Iran's preferred way. What codswallop! The US & Europe are innocent of all that? :plot:
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Re: When Was The Last Time Iran Started a War?

#100  Postby Galaxian » Jun 13, 2010 10:11 am

Jeffersonian-marxist wrote:
andyx1205 wrote:I haven't shown any empirical evidence? The last time Iran started a war by attacking/invading another country was in the middle of the 1800s. If Iran didn't start a war by attacking/invading another country for 250 years, the chances of it breaking that record are very slim. They're not non-existent, but they're very slim.
The statement "if a country has not invaded another country in a long time, then it is not likely to invade another country in the future" has not been rigorously demonstrated to be true. Indeed, it's only been rigorously assumed to be true.

Here's rigorous proof: Image :coffee:
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