Are Genocides Associated with Atheists?

Rumraket · **#42** by **Rumraket** » Oct 01, 2014 10:05 pm

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Rumraket · **#43** by **Rumraket** » Oct 01, 2014 10:13 pm

carl wrote:Genocidal maniacs come in many flavors, BOTH religious and not, but when the few atheists in history were bigoted and maniacal, they refused to follow the command: "Do not murder" and it resulted in genocide. Why?

- Karl Marx (died 1883): Atheist and Darwinist; Best known for his remark "Man makes religion...It is the opium of the people"; of Darwin’s book "Origin of Species", he said: "This is the book which contains the basis in natural history for our views."; the most brutal regimes in history adopted his atheistic philosophies to murder millions. In Russia alone, more than 20 million Christians were killed in the 20th century as a result of his policies.

- Friedrich Nietzsche (died 1900): Atheist; Best known for his remark "God is dead"; also an evolutionist but differed with Darwin on the details; his writings are credited as the driving force behind German militarism and Nazism which murdered millions; later suffered from a complete mental collapse.

- Vladimir Lenin (died 1924): Atheist and Darwinist; Bitterly renounced his belief in God following the death of his father and beloved brother; as a Marxist himself, he said: "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism..."; he supported Darwin's theory and said: "Darwin put an end to the belief that the animal and vegetable species bear no relation to one another, except by chance, and that they were created by God, and hence immutable."; his dictatorship was responsible for the deaths of 2 to 3 million people by starvation, execution, and war.

- Leon Trotsky (died 1940): Self-proclaimed "irreconcilable atheist" and Darwinist; he denied both the existence of God AND absolute morality by stating, "We call our dialectic 'materialist', since its roots are neither in heaven nor in the depths of our “free will”, but in objective reality, in nature...There is place within this system for neither God nor Devil, nor immortal soul, nor eternal norms of laws and morals."; he took intellectual pride in being a Darwinist and said, "Every educated person since Darwin has labeled themselves an “evolutionist”. But a real evolutionist must apply the idea of evolution to his own forms of thinking."; as a Bolshevik leader he masterminded the murder of hundreds of thousands of Russians through starvation and war during the Communist Russian Revolution.

- Benito Mussolini (died 1945): Atheist; known for "daring God to strike him dead" on many public occasions; also a Darwinist and extremely anti-Christian; persecuted both the Protestant and Catholic church; responsible for 400 to 500 thousand deaths; executed by a firing squad while attempting to escape from Italy.

- Joseph Stalin (died 1953): Became an atheist and Darwinist after reading Darwin's "Origin of Species", stating: "God's not unjust, he doesn't actually exist. We've been deceived."; he made atheism the official ideology of Russia and flooded the media and schools with atheistic propaganda; he crushed the Russian Orthodox Church, leveling thousands of churches and killing more than 100,000 priests, monks and nuns during the religious "purge" between 1937 and 1938 alone. Overall, his atheistic dictatorship killed 20 to 60 million people by starvation, execution, and war.

- Margaret Sanger (died 1966): Atheist and Darwinist; Known for her remark "The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it"; advocate of eugenics (Darwinist-based attempts to develop a superior race through selective breeding of humans), mandatory sterilizations of the "unfit", and infanticide; founder of Planned Parenthood - America's largest abortion provider responsible for the deaths of untold millions of preborn children.

- Mao Zedong (died 1976): Atheist, with Darwin as his favorite author; he stated "Religion is poison." and "Chinese socialism is founded upon Darwin and the theory of evolution."; He made atheism the official ideology of China and flooded the media and schools with atheistic propaganda; lived an opulent lifestyle while the common people starved; his regime caused the deaths of 40 to 70 million people by starvation, torture, and executions.

- Jim Jones (died 1978): Atheist; responsible for the 1978 mass murder/suicide of 908 members of the People's Temple cult in Guyana, including his ordered executions of several members of the press and a visiting Congressman. He said: "Off the record, I don’t believe in any loving God. Our people, I would say, are ninety percent atheist...I felt somewhat hypocritical for the last years as I became an atheist...you feel tainted, by being in the church situation. But of course, everyone knows where I’m at. My bishop knows that I’m an atheist...He must have spent twenty thousand dollars traveling around, hoping to get my denomination to remove me, because I was so atheistic.” (The Jonestown Institute audiotape, 1976).

- Pol Pot (died 1998): As leader of the deadly Khmer Rouge, he admired and adopted Mao's atheist and Darwinist philosophies; known for his "Cambodian killing fields"; closed all religious institutions including Buddhist temples but especially persecuted Christians and Muslims; responsible for 1 to 3 million executions, mostly using axes, hammers, and sharpened bamboo sticks to save ammunition.

I don't care to debate the premise(that genocide is overrepresented amongst atheist dictators), I need only note that even if that is true, it doesn't mean that a god exists or that godbelief is therefore rationally justified.

carl wrote:Note: By SEVERE contrast, the Bible says "anyone who hates his brother is a murderer". The mere THOUGHT alone makes us a murderer.

In which case the bible is wrong, because one only becomes a murderer by actually committing murder. Thank you for providing another air-tight proof of the ludicrousness and irrelevancy of the bible on matters of ethics and morals. :thumbup:

chairman bill · **#44** by **chairman bill** » Oct 01, 2014 10:22 pm

carl wrote:<snip 'misinformed bollocks'>

Let's take it from the top, shall we
- Karl Marx: Had nothing to do with the death of anyone

- Friedrich Nietzsche: Had nothing to do with the death of anyone

- Vladimir Lenin: The first country to legalise homosexuality & abortion, was Lenin's Soviet Union. He also introduced free universal health care, no-fault divorce, free education, land reform, and a general modernisation, and the establishment of a free market economy. All that in the midst or just after world war, invasion, and civil war. No genocide.

- Leon Trotsky: An anti-war socialist, and a Jew, who had a religious wedding. He didn't oversee genocide. Yes, there was starvation in Russia, but funnily enough, it was during war time. It was not policy.

- Benito Mussolini: Catholic. Baptized in 1927. Had Catholic clerics in the Fascist Party, and Pope Pius XI called Mussolini "the Man of Providence"

- Joseph Stalin: All-round nasty bastard, who had been in training for the priesthood. And yes, he declared himself an atheist, though atheism wasn't the reason for his murderousness.

- Margaret Sanger: Not actually responsible for the death of any living persons.

- Mao Zedong: It's true that his regime caused the deaths of 40 to 70 million people by starvation, torture, and executions. The Chinese population also grew by some 350 million, with education, free universal healthcare, and so on. Nobody died because of his atheism.

- Jim Jones: Mad man, with a range of weird beliefs, including that he was Ghandi reincarnated, that he was a reincarnation of Jesus, and Lenin, was God ... and he killed lots of people.

- Pol Pot: Nasty bastard, guilty of genocide. I've no idea of his beliefs. He did suppress religious organisations, and anything else that offered any alternative point of view to his own.

And the one you missed was Hitler, who was a Catholic.

SafeAsMilk · **#45** by **SafeAsMilk** » Oct 01, 2014 10:23 pm

carl wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The Bible also says a lot of hateful, vicious, barbaric crap including techniques on how best to murder babies.

So based on your true and genuine concern for babies, I assume you're pro-life?

An idiotic assumption to make since fetuses aren't babies.

Spearthrower · **#46** by **Spearthrower** » Oct 01, 2014 10:40 pm

carl wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:Why are your arguments tailored to generate maximal hatred with the membership here?

Firstly, to imply "the membership" meaning everyone here, you are wrong. You are in the minority.

My arguments are tailored to generate discussion on issues which make most of us feel too uncomfortable to discuss otherwise. So uncomfortable that most of us avoid such issues like the plague. If you're of this persuasion, you're excused. You can go and discuss the weather or sports or board games with others like yourself.

If you just simply have no control over your emotions in discussing these issues (you are in the minority with this problem; most of the membership here do not have this problem), such as your emotion of hatred, that's because of you, not because of anyone else, but you and you alone.

I am discussing, not yelling, not preaching, but discussing. If you have hatred because of someone on a simple online blog, you need help.

I've rebutted your arguments in 2 threads in depth. I have at no point suggested I am uncomfortable discussing any topic - quite the opposite, I've expressed my sincere enjoyment of watching you try to foist off nonsense from authority and craft the pretense of being here for anything other than atheist-bashing.

I understand that you think personally demeaning me will somehow lend credence to your position, but that also fails at basic logic as per the other attempts at emotional argumentation.

I have exhibited no lack of emotional control, so I find it interesting that you would now opt for this line of discussion. It doesn't seem like you're interested in any of the substance of responses, only in what reaction you can get.

And yes, I can say 'we' on account of having been a member here for quite some time and having shared the experience with the other members of drive-by haters who come, for some bizarre reason, to share their hatred of us and all that they think we stand for. It's the same transparent schtick each time.

My emotion of hatred is non-existent. Your attempts certainly don't achieve your desired result in that respect as there's nothing you've said of any merit, let alone something intelligent enough to make me uncomfortable.

Instead, we've seen you use 2 threads as stalking horses to bash on atheists. You can frame them as questions, but if you're only interested in using them as platforms to espouse your disdain for people, then the only hatred appears to be stemming from you.

Perhaps you can review your own advice:

Carl wrote:If you have hatred because of someone on a simple online blog, you need help.

Spearthrower · **#47** by **Spearthrower** » Oct 01, 2014 10:51 pm

carl wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
carl wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The Bible also says a lot of hateful, vicious, barbaric crap including techniques on how best to murder babies.

So based on your true and genuine concern for babies, I assume you're pro-life?

I am mostly concerned with the price of fish, Carl.

Whatever my stance on abortion is, it's entirely irrelevant as to whether the Bible says a lot of hateful, vicious, barbaric crap including techniques on how best to murder babies. Wouldn't you agree?

I notice you've ignored the rest which so thoroughly dismantles the objective of the thread.

You won't mind if I keep citing myself then when you make the same hate-filled contentions later? It will save me writing new stuff if you can't address the old!

Your concern for babies has no relevance to abortion? Really?

No, and you'll note that I rejected this transparent rhetorical device to restake the argument elsewhere the first time. It's a red herring, Carl. When someone spots your red herring, calls you on it, and then clearly refocuses the discussion on the relevant topic... you can't just try again and expect it to work.

carl wrote:Since you avoided the question,...

Rejecting that my position on abortion has anything to do with whether the Bible exhibits nasty, depraved and barbaric behavior does not equate to 'avoiding the question'.

carl wrote: let's just say you're pro-choice,...

Let's say that I've busted the numerable times you've tried to oversimplify things into black and white dichotomies. I don't subscribe to any extreme position, so there's little point in telling me what my position is and then crafting an argument based on it. An argument specifically designed to ignore the substance of my response.

carl wrote: therefore feigning concern for babies because you have a bone to pick with the Bible, and leave it at that.

What an utterly idiotic pile of crap, Carl.

Firstly, why would I 'feign' concern for babies? Why does it have to be feigned? Do you think it's unusual to be concerned with the barbaric treatment of children? Do you think atheists are less than human? Sociopaths? Baby eaters? In what distorted world would you imagine people not concerned with the treatment of children?

Of course I have a bone to pick with the Bible - it's not a font of good. You tried to foist off the nonsensical crap that atheism is essentially related to violence. I provided EXACTLY the same type of reasoning to show that Christianity is essentially related to violence. Of course, I did so in the full awareness that I was intentionally cherry-picking, I even said so. I did this to show that you were doing likewise, but that you were actually attempting to foist it off as valid.

Of course, your complete inability to address this means you already lost the discussion, which is why you have restaked the debate on an entirely unrelated topic.

You might think you're a master magician, but I keep seeing you pocket the rabbit.

Spearthrower · **#48** by **Spearthrower** » Oct 01, 2014 10:53 pm

Animavore wrote:Mussolini didn't have a 'stache.

Ahh but his ADHERENCE to the stand of others who did have 'staches suggests that he did, in fact, have a 'stache... or so Carl would tell us!

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo · **#49** by **Ven. Kwan Tam Woo** » Oct 01, 2014 11:02 pm

But what does the Bible say about whether or not Mussolini had a 'stache ??

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo · **#50** by **Ven. Kwan Tam Woo** » Oct 01, 2014 11:06 pm

carl wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The Bible also says a lot of hateful, vicious, barbaric crap including techniques on how best to murder babies.

So based on your true and genuine concern for babies, I assume you're pro-life?

So based on your lame attempt at a red-herring, I take this as an admission on your part that the Bible is in fact pro-abortion?

Bubalus · **#51** by **Bubalus** » Oct 01, 2014 11:34 pm

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:But what does the Bible say about whether or not Mussolini had a 'stache ??

Following babble logic, Mussolini thought about a 'tache once so therefore had had one :naughty2:

Fallible · **#52** by **Fallible** » Oct 01, 2014 11:41 pm

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
carl wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The Bible also says a lot of hateful, vicious, barbaric crap including techniques on how best to murder babies.

So based on your true and genuine concern for babies, I assume you're pro-life?

So based on your lame attempt at a red-herring, I take this as an admission on your part that the Bible is in fact pro-abortion?

It is indeed. Pro-late-late-late-term abortion, on en masse, when the 'foetuses' start behaving in ways God doesn't like.

Inanities, 4:36 - And lo the Lord did look down upon the Creation and He was vexed. And the mountains were shaken to their foundations as He did scream 'Oh noes, I done it wrong! They is having butt secks! Abort! Abort! Abort!'

JVRaines · **#53** by **JVRaines** » Oct 02, 2014 1:13 am

carl wrote:
Lowpro wrote:I'll also bet cash money that you didn't type this up; someone else did and you're busy copypasting it.

Please give us a link to show where I copy and pasted from. Thank you very much.

Your description of Stalin says:

"[H]e crushed the Russian Orthodox Church, leveling thousands of churches and killing more than 100,000 priests, monks and nuns during the religious "purge" between 1937 and 1938 alone."

Which is eerily similar to this sentence from the Stalin section at this webpage:

"He crushed the Russian Orthodox Church, leveling thousands of churches and shooting more than 100,000 priests, monks and nuns between 1937 and 1938."

I will leave the work of finding other apparent plagiarisms to my fellow members.

Darwinsbulldog · **#54** by **Darwinsbulldog** » Oct 02, 2014 2:39 am

I see "blind faith" of any kind, to be a major risk factor in atrocities. If someone is unwilling, or unable to see a contrary point of view, then this is potentially dangerous in numerous ways.
The One party Communist state in the USSR was a creation, in part, of Western Chrisendom. By involving itself in a civil war to support pro-Tsarist or anti=socialist forces, the USA and other "European" states pushed the USSR into being a one party state, because it was clear if the anti-Soviet forces won, there would be a restoration of the Tsar's religious and absolute monarchy. Therefore any anti-Soviet party or group was a threat to the state, so the solution was to ban and suppress other parties, because no-one wanted a return of tsarist tyrannical absolutism.
If the "West" had not intervened, especially in such a "crusading' fashion, then the Soviet state might never have ended up being so harsh and single-party. It is indeed unfortunate and ironic that in trying to free themselves from real tyranny, created a new tyranny of their own making. But the very people who hate the Soviet system the most were those from outside that helped to mutate it into the sort of monster most would dread.

Lowpro · **#55** by **Lowpro** » Oct 02, 2014 2:44 am

Many of his comments echoed Harun Yayah, particularly its bias against Marxism.

Spearthrower · **#56** by **Spearthrower** » Oct 02, 2014 2:53 am

Lowpro wrote:Many of his comments echoed Harun Yayah, particularly its bias against Marxism.

I think it's just that there are only so many anti-science straws to grasp. Ultimately, they inevitably converge on the same pap.

The_Metatron · **#57** by **The_Metatron** » Oct 02, 2014 3:02 am

Spearthrower wrote:
carl wrote:
Fallible wrote:My goodness, look at all the bollocks.

I notice you didn't SPECIFICALLY spell out what the historical error I made is. I realize its much easier to make a quick personal comment instead.

Please provide SPECIFIC DETAILS showing my supposed historical error. This is the minimum requirement here.

Please provide SPECIFIC SOURCES for your contentions. This is the minimum requirement here as it relates to the Burden of Proof.

I can just write 'wrong' otherwise and have matched the same level of authority as your claims.

Actually, I would trust your authority on wrongness over Carl's any day. You have actually thought on the topic, vice hanging your concept of right or wrong on Carl's book of magic.

laklak · **#58** by **laklak** » Oct 02, 2014 3:05 am

Damn, he's on to us. 2000 years of meticulous planning, billions of shekels in bribes, thousands of false flag operations, all for naught. We've been rumbled, lads. Carl has figured it out.

Yes, you're right, Carl. Atheists are responsible for ALL the carnage and genocide EVER. We would have left you alone, content to stay in the shadows manipulating events for our own nefarious ends, except that fucking Jew carpenter had to start shooting his mouth off. Ran our boyos out of the fucking temple, he did, the sanctimonious asswipe. There went our capitalization percentages, I can tell you.

You want to know why, Carl? Why we murder, rape, pillage and otherwise behave in a spectacularly anti-social manner? I'll tell you. It's because we fucking HATE God, Carl. Yep, I said it. We despise that motherfucker. We fucking loath him. If he was on fire in the middle of the street we wouldn't piss on him unless we were petrol pissing Arabs. Then we'd piss on his Holy Hole, trust me. And you know why we hate him so? Because he DIDN'T GIVE US A FUCKING PONY, THAT'S WHY!!!

I mean, how hard could it be for the Master of the Universe to give one little 8 year old kid a pony? It's not like we were asking for superpowers or a billion dollars or a chance to shag Lindsey Lohan on a waterbed filled with Christian virgin tears, all we wanted was a fucking PONY. One little wave of his Magic Todger and <POOF> there's a pony, but did he listen? Did the Loving Father give his son the best birthday present ever? No. He didn't, the selfish cunt. Bet he's sorry now, but it's too late. We're going to kill everybody! Rape everybody! Destroy EVERYTHING!

And there's nothing you can do about it. NOTHING! Bwa Ha Ha Ha Ha! BWWWWAAAAA HA HA HA HA!

Nicko · **#59** by **Nicko** » Oct 02, 2014 3:14 am

chairman bill wrote:
carl wrote:<snip 'misinformed bollocks'>

Let's take it from the top, shall we
- Karl Marx: Had nothing to do with the death of anyone

- Friedrich Nietzsche: Had nothing to do with the death of anyone

- Vladimir Lenin: The first country to legalise homosexuality & abortion, was Lenin's Soviet Union. He also introduced free universal health care, no-fault divorce, free education, land reform, and a general modernisation, and the establishment of a free market economy. All that in the midst or just after world war, invasion, and civil war. No genocide.

- Leon Trotsky: An anti-war socialist, and a Jew, who had a religious wedding. He didn't oversee genocide. Yes, there was starvation in Russia, but funnily enough, it was during war time. It was not policy.

- Benito Mussolini: Catholic. Baptized in 1927. Had Catholic clerics in the Fascist Party, and Pope Pius XI called Mussolini "the Man of Providence"

- Joseph Stalin: All-round nasty bastard, who had been in training for the priesthood. And yes, he declared himself an atheist, though atheism wasn't the reason for his murderousness.

- Margaret Sanger: Not actually responsible for the death of any living persons.

- Mao Zedong: It's true that his regime caused the deaths of 40 to 70 million people by starvation, torture, and executions. The Chinese population also grew by some 350 million, with education, free universal healthcare, and so on. Nobody died because of his atheism.

- Jim Jones: Mad man, with a range of weird beliefs, including that he was Ghandi reincarnated, that he was a reincarnation of Jesus, and Lenin, was God ... and he killed lots of people.

- Pol Pot: Nasty bastard, guilty of genocide. I've no idea of his beliefs. He did suppress religious organisations, and anything else that offered any alternative point of view to his own.

And the one you missed was Hitler, who was a Catholic.

To which I would add that the staggeringly huge numbers of people killed by people like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot is purely a function of technology and larger modern populations. If modern technology and populations were present during, say, the Protestant Reformation then a similar body count would have been observed.

The common threads in most cases of genocide are things like ideology, dogma and fanatical tribalism. Certainly one can have these things in the absence of religious belief; the problem with religion is that it raises these things to the level of a virtue.

The secular regimes in the 20th Century that carried out these atrocities did so because they were behaving like religions, not out of any "excess" of free thought or rational inquiry.

Paul Almond · **#60** by **Paul Almond** » Oct 02, 2014 3:18 am

So all this means that evolution is wrong?

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