Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#21  Postby Charlou » Jul 06, 2011 9:45 am

"elevator guy"


Would love to hear his take on all this ... :mrgreen:
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#22  Postby Animavore » Jul 06, 2011 9:46 am

It's quite possible elevator guy walked off kicking himself and feeling stupid (or not). I wonder if Ms Watson ever asked a guy out or came on to one?
I know I've had girls I didn't want to be with ask me. It's awkward and saying 'no' knowing you can potentially hurt the person's feelings or, in some cases, madden them is quite disconcerting.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#23  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jul 06, 2011 9:48 am

Particularly in a confined space! (Yes, I know elevators stop at floors. It doesn't take long to harm someone though.)
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#24  Postby Charlou » Jul 06, 2011 9:53 am

Animavore wrote:It's quite possible elevator guy walked off kicking himself and feeling stupid (or not). I wonder if Ms Watson ever asked a guy out or came on to one?
I know I've had girls I didn't want to be with ask me. It's awkward and saying 'no' knowing you can potentially hurt the person's feelings or, in some cases, madden them is quite disconcerting.

Misogynists. :nono:
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#25  Postby Animavore » Jul 06, 2011 9:55 am

I was proportioned by a big black woman in an apartment block on Jervis street once. The elevator stopped and I ran. It wasn't even my floor. I ran up the stairs to my friend's appartment and was knocking on the door when the elevator door opened and yer one walked out and by me with a look of contempt :lol:

I was really shy then. My friend, an Irish/Jordanian Muslim called Janal ended up shagging her another night.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#26  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jul 06, 2011 10:06 am

Charlou wrote:
She's coming from a presumption of sexualisation, therefore fear, just because he ("elevator guy") is male, so isn't the sexism on her part?


I got the impression she came from the presumption of sexualisation, therefore fear, because this person asked her out on a date.

I don't consider what Elevator Guy did sexist. What I consider sexist is telling women they're being hysterical and that they need to "grow a pair" instead of modifying a behaviour that makes a lot of women feel uncomfortable with pretty good reason. Sexual harrassment and assault against women by men is extremely prevalent.

And "community" ... what does that mean in this context?


Community of people who share a lack of religious faith - those who are targetted as potential attendees of events such as Global Atheist or AAI conventions.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#27  Postby Charlou » Jul 06, 2011 10:07 am

Animavore wrote:I was proportioned by a big black woman in an apartment block on Jervis street once. The elevator stopped and I ran. It wasn't even my floor. I ran up the stairs to my friend's appartment and was knocking on the door when the elevator door opened and yer one walked out and by me with a look of contempt :lol:

I was really shy then. My friend, an Irish/Jordanian Muslim called Janal ended up shagging her another night.


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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#28  Postby Paul G » Jul 06, 2011 10:18 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:

I don't consider what Elevator Guy did sexist. What I consider sexist is telling women they're being hysterical and that they need to "grow a pair" instead of modifying a behaviour that makes a lot of women feel uncomfortable with pretty good reason. Sexual harrassment and assault against women by men is extremely prevalent.


Should woman who intimidate men modify their behaviour?
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#29  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jul 06, 2011 10:19 am

rJD wrote:Dawkins dropped a bollock here, another example of his tendency to be "tone deaf". Watson was perfectly justified to say that being approached by a stranger in a lift at 4am was unsettling, and asking people to be a bit more sensitive, which is all she did. For Dawkins to mock her the way he did was totally unnecessary and out of proportion to what she'd actually said, and I don't blame Watson for being pissed off with it, and with him, and reacting to it.

:this:

Charlou wrote:I read Richard Dawkins' response that PZ Myers linked to ( http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011 ... nt-4309418 ) ...

A few thoughts ...

A woman may feel trapped within the confines of an elevator simply because the man is bigger/stronger and physically capable of preventing her from pressing a button and getting off.

The assumption that the man may have ill intentions simply because he's male is perhaps an insult to men, particularly to an innocent man with only friendly intentions.

Some men do have ill intentions and do overpower women to carry their ill intentions out.

Many women are very aware of this, either through anecdote or personal experience, or both. Many women are wary because of this.

It's a pragmatic position to be defensive. Pragmatic. Not morally right or wrong, just a practical response to what one knows about reality.

I wonder if the man had looked like a middle eastern, possibly muslim, man, whether this woman's concerns would have been treated less dismissively by Richard Dawkins.

And :this:

A comment on PZ's blog also says what I think:
Posted by: Adam Lee | July 3, 2011 9:04 PM
I'm incredibly disappointed to hear that those ignorant, crass and sexist comments really were from Richard Dawkins. He's said much more rational and sensible things about sexism in the past, and it's a tremendous letdown to hear him now so casually dismissing the experiences and complaints of Western feminists. Shame on him.


MattHunX wrote:And honestly, what does she expect to happen in a bar, at 4:00am, with potentially drunk and/or potentially sexually aroused individuals? A little naive, I feel.
You are kidding, right?

To all the men people who are saying 'it's a storm in a teacup' or 'she should get over herself' or 'she has nothing to complain about', how many of you are likely to be the ones who post on threads about rape saying things like that comment above? We've been there, got the t-shirt, the one that reads 'I'm dressed like a tart so it's ok to rape me'.

There's a word for what Dickie has done here, INVALIDATION.

A quick lesson in invalidation

Here is a conversation I had yesterday. I was trying to explain the basic concept of invalidation.

S: Have you ever been crying and someone said "Don't cry"?
E: Yes

S: Did it help?
E: No

S: Have you ever been worried and someone said "Don't worry"?
E: Yes

S: Did it help?
E: No

S: Have you ever been angry and someone said "Don't get angry"?
E: Yes

S: Did it help?
E: No

So maybe that is the world's shortest course on invalidation!


Oh, but wait! The sooner women get used to being patronised, and having their feelings and concerns invalidated, the better, eh guys? That way, when they just put up and shut up, whatever happens is their own fault.
Last edited by Doubtdispelled on Jul 06, 2011 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#30  Postby Charlou » Jul 06, 2011 10:22 am

Charlou wrote:
She's coming from a presumption of sexualisation, therefore fear, just because he ("elevator guy") is male, so isn't the sexism on her part?


Rachel Bronwyn wrote:

I got the impression she came from the presumption of sexualisation, therefore fear, because this person asked her out on a date.

I don't consider what Elevator Guy did sexist.


Charlou split (see below)

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:What I consider sexist is telling women they're being hysterical and that they need to "grow a pair" instead of modifying a behaviour that makes a lot of women feel uncomfortable with pretty good reason. Sexual harrassment and assault against women by men is extremely prevalent.


See how I split your comments there? I'm separating the "elevator guy" issue from the Dawkins response issue. The key separation point is "I don't consider what Elevator Guy did sexist". Elevator guy is in the overlap .. he's the fall guy of the situation, the emotional springboard of the anecdote that was set up with the preamble I mentioned earlier ... an anecdote that lacks any evidence of actual ill intention or wrong doing.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#31  Postby babel » Jul 06, 2011 10:24 am

To me, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the actions of the guy in the elevator. Her reaction is understandable too. The reaction from Dawkins isn't.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#32  Postby Charlou » Jul 06, 2011 10:28 am

babel wrote:To me, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the actions of the guy in the elevator. Her reaction is understandable too. The reaction from Dawkins isn't.

Fucking zing.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#33  Postby nunnington » Jul 06, 2011 10:31 am

What's interesting is the amount of heat being generated on all sides by this incident. It suggests that some women feel sidelined or not heard, and that some men can't hear that, or won't.

It reminds me of comparable battles in left-wing groups in the 60s and 70s, when the women in them realized that they were being patronized, and in fact, often asked to make the tea! This led in part to the explosion of feminism, and the splitting of some feminist groups from orthodox left-wing groups.

I do agree that 4am in an elevator is a scary place, and I'm a bloke!
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#34  Postby babel » Jul 06, 2011 10:34 am

Charlou wrote:
babel wrote:To me, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the actions of the guy in the elevator. Her reaction is understandable too. The reaction from Dawkins isn't.

Fucking zing.

And to add for clarity:
I think it's a pity that a woman should be cautious when she's alone with a man. This much pussyfooting around for a simple interaction between two normal adults should never make one of them feel threatened. that it is considered pragmatic is saying a lot about the state of society.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#35  Postby Hermit » Jul 06, 2011 10:34 am

Elsewhere, Richard Dawkins wrote:Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard
and
Many people seem to think it obvious that my post was wrong and I should apologise. Very few people have bothered to explain exactly why.

Read this, Richard Dawkins:
Did you just make the argument that, since worse things are happening somewhere else, we have no right to try to fix things closer to home? By that argument, I shouldn't complain when our local high school biology teacher tosses around IDiot arguments because there are children elsewhere who can't even go to school?

Your sarcasm might have been acceptable if you abstained from doing what you require others to abstaining from.


I think Babel got the entire issue in a nutshell:
To me, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the actions of the guy in the elevator. Her reaction is understandable too. The reaction from Dawkins isn't.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#36  Postby MattHunX » Jul 06, 2011 10:38 am

Doubtdispelled wrote:

MattHunX wrote:And honestly, what does she expect to happen in a bar, at 4:00am, with potentially drunk and/or potentially sexually aroused individuals? A little naive, I feel.
You are kidding, right?

To all the men who are saying 'it's a storm in a teacup' or 'she should get over herself' or 'she has nothing to complain about', how many of you are likely to be the ones who post on threads about rape saying things like that comment above? We've been there, got the t-shirt, the one that reads 'I'm dressed like a tart so it's ok to rape me'.


Overreacting, a little. I wasn't making any comments on how she might have been dressed.

She obviously wasn't the kind of woman to just accept such an admittedly bold "invitation", anyway. Other women, with less inhibitions, and less shy, might easily have taken the guy's "offer", simply for the fun of it. What are the chances that he was a murdering psychopath as opposed to simply being sexually aroused and/or intoxicated to the point where he would make such a bold "proposition".

This woman obviously wasn't likely to accept the invitation from anyone, anyway. This situation, that this one guy just happened to find/approach her, a more shy, more reserved woman, alone in the elevator is so mundane, they might as well have been in a 7/11, a club, or a clothing store, with the guy hitting on her, minus the booze, or if we want that, then in a random bar.

If she wants to complain about something so trivial (in this society), then other women, who were in similar situations in bars, shops, restaurants, clubs...etc. might as well complain, too. Of course, she didn't want to consciously put herself in a situation like that, being approached by a stranger. Still, there should be no cause for concern on her part, especially, since she can escape the situation with just words. If the guy had been forceful in any way, she'd have a valid complaint.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#37  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jul 06, 2011 10:40 am

nunnington wrote:What's interesting is the amount of heat being generated on all sides by this incident. It suggests that some women feel sidelined or not heard, and that some men can't hear that, or won't.


Yep.

babel wrote: This much pussyfooting around for a simple interaction between two normal adults should never make one of them feel threatened. that it is considered pragmatic is saying a lot about the state of society.


Yep again.

So - what's the answer?

It's a very simple one, but it seems to be taking us centuries to get there.
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#38  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jul 06, 2011 10:43 am

MattHunX wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:

MattHunX wrote:And honestly, what does she expect to happen in a bar, at 4:00am, with potentially drunk and/or potentially sexually aroused individuals? A little naive, I feel.
You are kidding, right?

To all the men who are saying 'it's a storm in a teacup' or 'she should get over herself' or 'she has nothing to complain about', how many of you are likely to be the ones who post on threads about rape saying things like that comment above? We've been there, got the t-shirt, the one that reads 'I'm dressed like a tart so it's ok to rape me'.


No, I'm not kidding. She obviously wasn't the kind of woman to just accept such an admittedly bold "invitation", anyway. Other women, with less inhibitions, and less shy, might easily have taken the guy's "offer", simply for the fun of it. What are the chances that he was a murdering psychopath as opposed to simply being sexually aroused and/or intoxicated to the point where he would make such a bold "proposition".

This woman obviously wasn't likely to accept the invitation from anyone, anyway. This situation, that this one guy just happened to find/approach her, a more shy, more reserved woman, alone in the elevator is so mundane, they might as well have been in a 7/11, a club, or a clothing store, with the guy hitting on her, minus the booze, or if we want that, then in a random bar.

If she wants to complain about something so trivial (in this society), then other women, who were in similar situations in bars, shops, restaurants, clubs...etc. might as well complain, too.

And that would be simply ridiculous.

You just don't 'get it', do you, Matt? Trivial? You are doing exactly the same thing Dawkins did.

And what in hell's name does sexual arousal have to do with it?
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#39  Postby babel » Jul 06, 2011 10:46 am

Doubtdispelled wrote:Yep again.

So - what's the answer?

It's a very simple one, but it seems to be taking us centuries to get there.

Mindreading? :ask:

From a male perspective, it's impossible to know for sure beforehand if a woman will appreciate being chatted up by you. Avoid chatting up entirely, might render our species extinct in a couple of decades though... So, back to mindreading.

Anyone seen Yuri around?
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Re: Atheism and Feminism (or, Watson v. Dawkins)

#40  Postby Animavore » Jul 06, 2011 10:47 am

Charlou wrote:
Animavore wrote:I was proportioned by a big black woman in an apartment block on Jervis street once. The elevator stopped and I ran. It wasn't even my floor. I ran up the stairs to my friend's appartment and was knocking on the door when the elevator door opened and yer one walked out and by me with a look of contempt :lol:

I was really shy then. My friend, an Irish/Jordanian Muslim called Janal ended up shagging her another night.


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Oh it's funny when it happens to a man. Double standards :naughty:

Well it is pretty funny looking back on it, I suppose. And all the other times I fled from women in fear.
The sexual intimidation from girls in my class taking advantage of my shyness - not so much.
I would've made a YouTube video but I probably would've been ridiculed and told to 'grow a pair' :P
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