Belief in a "higher power"

How do you convince someone who believes in "something greater"

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#81  Postby tolman » Feb 05, 2017 1:03 am

Dark energy wrote:until recently,scientists thought Empty space is just that devoid of any content and form but , according to quantum physics it is filled with quantum particles coming in and out of existence in femto seconds.

But, as is usual with science:
a) It didn't really matter before scientists found out, as nothing previously being done depended on 'empty space' being really empty.
b) No other fuckers had more of a clue as to the nature of reality.

Personally, when it comes to a choice between people who find things out and people who just make shit up, I'll go with the first any day.
I don't do sarcasm smileys, but someone as bright as you has probably figured that out already.
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#82  Postby tolman » Feb 05, 2017 1:07 am

Dark energy wrote:What i meant was that you cant rely on science 100% of the time,theories are just theories and they change if it cant be reproduced again and again etc...my intuition is that scientific laws apply to the physical world but not to the higher being/power.

Yeah, because the 'higher powers' are just things people made up, and things different people made up differently, depending on their level of [often quite understandable] ignorance, as well as to whatever behaviours they wanted to pretend a higher power authorised.
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#83  Postby BWE » Feb 05, 2017 5:42 am

That is definitely a strange intuition. I am fine with the idea of higher powers, but to be clear, does that mean higher laws than those of physics?
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#84  Postby THWOTH » Feb 05, 2017 12:54 pm

Griz_ wrote:I went through a rather long period where I rejected religious dogma but clung to a belief in some nebulous "higher power"...


I did too. I called it alcohol.
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#85  Postby Dark energy » Feb 05, 2017 3:05 pm

BWE wrote:That is definitely a strange intuition. I am fine with the idea of higher powers, but to be clear, does that mean higher laws than those of physics?


Probably so,in a ream where physics laws dont apply,it is hard to imagine such thing.

this is an article i saw somewhere cant be bothered with it.
Theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, one of the most respected scientists today claimed that he found definitive proof of the existence of God. The information he shared created a great stir in the scientific community simply because of his status as one of the creators and developers of the revolutionary String Theory, which is highly regarded everywhere in the world.

the thing is this higher being can be interpreted in many different ways ,it can be Trinity Jesus according to bible-the word bible doesnt exist in the bible it self interesting :ask: ,,Allah of Muslims or hindu ,it is up to the individual to seek the truth and believe what the heck he/she is comfortable with.
And."
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#86  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 05, 2017 3:28 pm

Dark energy wrote:
BWE wrote:That is definitely a strange intuition. I am fine with the idea of higher powers, but to be clear, does that mean higher laws than those of physics?


Probably so,in a ream where physics laws dont apply,it is hard to imagine such thing.

How do you know such a realm exist?
And why would it be 'higher'?

Dark energy wrote:
this is an article i saw somewhere cant be bothered with it.
Theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, one of the most respected scientists today claimed that he found definitive proof of the existence of God. The information he shared created a great stir in the scientific community simply because of his status as one of the creators and developers of the revolutionary String Theory, which is highly regarded everywhere in the world.

If you're citing from an article, you need to provide a link to the original article, otherwise it's plagiarism and/or just an unconfirmed story.

Dark energy wrote:
the thing is this higher being can be interpreted in many different ways ,it can be Trinity Jesus according to bible-the word bible doesnt exist in the bible it self interesting :ask: ,,Allah of Muslims or hindu ,it is up to the individual to seek the truth and believe what the heck he/she is comfortable with.

Or the genocidal god of Abraham.
But you'd first have to demonstrate the existence of a higher being.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#87  Postby Dark energy » Feb 05, 2017 4:01 pm

How do you know such a realm exist?
And why would it be 'higher'?


It is my understanding that nobody can proof the existence of an entity Like God nor proof its non-existance.so,why bother arguing back and forth with it.
If you're citing from an article, you need to provide a link to the original article, otherwise it's plagiarism and/or just an unconfirmed story.


the article is there,i just showed short excerpts here.

for me,it looks like you got your info about GOD from the bible which has been subjected to numerous alternations,additions to suit the needs of the clergy at that time.these additions,alternations continue to this day.
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#88  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 05, 2017 4:11 pm

Dark energy wrote:
How do you know such a realm exist?
And why would it be 'higher'?


It is my understanding that nobody can proof the existence of an entity Like God nor proof its non-existance.so,why bother arguing back and forth with it.

1. Proof is a mathematical concept. So unless you mean prove, then it does not even apply.
2. We bother because a significant number of theists, including your fellow Muslims want enforce their religious beliefs and laws onto the rest of society.

Dark energy wrote:
If you're citing from an article, you need to provide a link to the original article, otherwise it's plagiarism and/or just an unconfirmed story.


the article is there,i just showed short excerpts here.

Where? It's not in this thread.
Again, you need to provide a link or source for this article, otherwise you're violating the FUA.

Dark energy wrote:
for me,it looks like you got your info about GOD from the bible which has been subjected to numerous alternations,additions to suit the needs of the clergy at that time.these additions,alternations continue to this day.

Let me give you a tip that might help during your membership of this site: don't make assumptions about your interlocutors.
I've read the Koran, the bible, parts of the Torah and Badevat Ghita. I also took a course on Arabic-Islamic history.
Besides that, I've also talked and discusused with theists from various religions, both in person and online.
So no, I did not just get my view of god from the bible.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#89  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 05, 2017 4:12 pm

Also, you can keep ignoring the point about the genocidal disposition of the Abrahamic god, it won't magically change or hide that fact.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#90  Postby Thommo » Feb 05, 2017 4:16 pm

Dark energy wrote:It is my understanding that nobody can proof the existence of an entity Like God nor proof its non-existance.so,why bother arguing back and forth with it.


Whilst your understanding depends on certain assumptions about what constitutes proof and what a god-like entity is, that are subject to question, the reason for argument is the same either way. It is precisely because people are telling other people that god exists on an industrial scale, and then dictating how people live their lives based on the existence of that god and what they have decided it wants. Many of those dictates have actual, harmful consequences, from stoning for blasphemy to keeping someone trapped in an unhappy marriage.

If everyone kept it to themselves, there would be no reason for argument. But for some reason some people insist on having religious schools, religious lawmakers, the right to tell their children what the one true religion is, the right to religious exception to equality law and the right to tell other people how they should live their lives. As long as they put forth those views, they can expect to get argument back (from the religious and non religious alike).
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#91  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 05, 2017 4:20 pm

How often do we get these trolls? Three or four a year? Do they really think we dont have clue?

The same bloody crap about the koran. I have yet to hear the koran is still the original version but I am quite sure that wont be long to come. Listen DE we are not interested in your crappy religion. Why dont you jkust leave quietly as you wont achieve anything here. We have heard so often and it just becomes tiresome.

Remember to close the door on the way out that's a good boy.
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#92  Postby Dark energy » Feb 05, 2017 4:46 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also, you can keep ignoring the point about the genocidal disposition of the Abrahamic god, it won't magically change or hide that fact.


genocide is Wrong ,If you see a verse that condones it is likely being altered by humans.


http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/27826/

I tolerate atheists as long as they dont rub their nihilistic view points on me.not that you are thomos
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#93  Postby Thommo » Feb 05, 2017 5:03 pm

Dark energy wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also, you can keep ignoring the point about the genocidal disposition of the Abrahamic god, it won't magically change or hide that fact.


genocide is Wrong ,If you see a verse that condones it is likely being altered by humans.


We could say the same of any verse, whether positive, neutral or negative. The question is whether anyone can come up with some reasonable standard as to why this only applies to some verses that isn't entirely ad hoc.
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#94  Postby THWOTH » Feb 05, 2017 5:10 pm

Dark energy wrote:
How do you know such a realm exist?
And why would it be 'higher'?


It is my understanding that nobody can proof the existence of an entity Like God nor proof its non-existance.so,why bother arguing back and forth with it...

Why do we have to prove that the thing (God) for which there is no evidence does not exist. If the existence of a thing (God) is not or cannot be supported then there are no reasons to believe that thing exists.

Generally speaking, atheists don't make a claim that God and/or gods do not exist, only that the various claims for God and/or gods remain wholly unsupported and are therefore unbelievable.

Declaring the unprovability of God to be one God's properties or attributes is simply a rhetorical conceit to avoid justifying the claim that God exists.

If God exists, what is God?
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#95  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 05, 2017 5:23 pm

Dark energy wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also, you can keep ignoring the point about the genocidal disposition of the Abrahamic god, it won't magically change or hide that fact.


genocide is Wrong ,If you see a verse that condones it is likely being altered by humans.

How do you know?
Through what objective method do you determine which religious texts are corrrect and which have been altered.
From where I'm sitting it's seems your cherry-picking, applying circular reasoning and comitting several other fallacies.

Dark energy wrote:
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/27826/

I tolerate atheists as long as they dont rub their nihilistic view points on me.not that you are thomos

Atheism is not nihilism.
You don't like nihilism.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#96  Postby SafeAsMilk » Feb 05, 2017 5:45 pm

Dark energy wrote:
BWE wrote:That is definitely a strange intuition. I am fine with the idea of higher powers, but to be clear, does that mean higher laws than those of physics?


Probably so,in a ream where physics laws dont apply,it is hard to imagine such thing.

It's not difficult at all, fiction and fantasy writers constantly make up situations where understood laws of physics don't apply, it's their job. We're swimming in such things. What's hard is showing that a realm like this exists. Why do you think it does? How can you tell, since evidence doesn't apply?

this is an article i saw somewhere cant be bothered with it.
Theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, one of the most respected scientists today claimed that he found definitive proof of the existence of God. The information he shared created a great stir in the scientific community simply because of his status as one of the creators and developers of the revolutionary String Theory, which is highly regarded everywhere in the world.

That's quite a claim for something that you can't be bothered with! ;) People make wild claims all the time, but it always comes down to the evidence. Whether you're an uneducated person or a respected scientist, this is always the case.

As a side note string theory, while interesting, is far from an accepted concept of how things work. It explains some things but not others. You certainly can't point to it and say, "Well anything this guy says must be right." Science doesn't work that way.

the thing is this higher being can be interpreted in many different ways ,it can be Trinity Jesus according to bible-the word bible doesnt exist in the bible it self interesting :ask: ,,Allah of Muslims or hindu ,it is up to the individual to seek the truth and believe what the heck he/she is comfortable with.

That's fine I guess, but makes it impossible to have a meaningful or productive discussion about it because essentially you're just throwing opinions around and everyone's right. Not very interesting to folks around here, I'm afraid.
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#97  Postby BWE » Feb 05, 2017 10:54 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Dark energy wrote:
BWE wrote:That is definitely a strange intuition. I am fine with the idea of higher powers, but to be clear, does that mean higher laws than those of physics?


Probably so,in a ream where physics laws dont apply,it is hard to imagine such thing.

How do you know such a realm exist?
And why would it be 'higher'?

Thanks. That was the question I was getting at. I can imagine a recursive function where the laws of physics emerge at one level from qualities of some other level. But if that is not what people mean than higher power then I am left with a horribly garbled idea of a provincial sky daddy that listens from the other room and will spank us or give us ice cream after a while.


Dark energy wrote:
this is an article i saw somewhere cant be bothered with it.
Theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, one of the most respected scientists today claimed that he found definitive proof of the existence of God. The information he shared created a great stir in the scientific community simply because of his status as one of the creators and developers of the revolutionary String Theory, which is highly regarded everywhere in the world.

If you're citing from an article, you need to provide a link to the original article, otherwise it's plagiarism and/or just an unconfirmed story.

Dark energy wrote:
the thing is this higher being can be interpreted in many different ways ,it can be Trinity Jesus according to bible-the word bible doesnt exist in the bible it self interesting :ask: ,,Allah of Muslims or hindu ,it is up to the individual to seek the truth and believe what the heck he/she is comfortable with.

Or the genocidal god of Abraham.
But you'd first have to demonstrate the existence of a higher being.
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#98  Postby Alan B » Feb 06, 2017 11:30 am

Dark energy wrote:genocide is Wrong ,If you see a verse that condones it is likely being altered by humans.

Well, it wouldn't have been altered or originated by anything else, except a human.

All writings known on this planet are derived solely by humans with no other non-human external directing or thought-controlling agency adding their input.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#99  Postby aban57 » Feb 06, 2017 1:31 pm

Dark energy wrote:
this is an article i saw somewhere cant be bothered with it.
Theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, one of the most respected scientists today claimed that he found definitive proof of the existence of God. The information he shared created a great stir in the scientific community simply because of his status as one of the creators and developers of the revolutionary String Theory, which is highly regarded everywhere in the world.


Dark energy wrote:
How do you know such a realm exist?
And why would it be 'higher'?


It is my understanding that nobody can proof the existence of an entity Like God nor proof its non-existance.so,why bother arguing back and forth with it.


Aren't those two posts refuting each other ?
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Re: Belief in a "higher power"

#100  Postby Sendraks » Feb 06, 2017 1:41 pm

Dark energy wrote:
Theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, one of the most respected scientists today claimed that he found definitive proof of the existence of God. The information he shared created a great stir in the scientific community simply because of his status as one of the creators and developers of the revolutionary String Theory, which is highly regarded everywhere in the world..


Apart from all those places where it is not.
Emphasis bold.
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