hackenslash wrote:Indeed. I was aware that I was adding a qualifier. My point is that I agree with PeeZed for a change, in that all the arguments for abortion I've ever come across have treated the embryo as having some magical qualities, which qualify them as non-secular, IMO.

Well, aren't there arguments that treat the fetus as having equivalent rights to a newborn, based on viability, and as such doesn't that qualify as secular and reasonable, albeit not irrefutable?

Suggesting a fetus ought to receive legal protections need not require magic. It need only require it be compared to a neborn baby, or even a newborn puppy or kitten.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't secular arguments, only that those that treat it with certain language are not. I gave an example of a secular argument in the other thread in fact.

The problem is that the word 'foetus' is pretty vague in definition, because it runs from zygote to birth, give or take.

laklak wrote:From my admittedly sparse experience, most "conservative" atheists I know are more libertarian than Republican-type conservatives.

Yes, there is a battle that has been raging for years within the Republican party as to what "conservative" actually means. If you talk to the religious right, you get the notion that the US was founded upon Christianity. If you talk to the libertarian Republicans, you get a more separation of church and state mentality.

Most of the libertarian Republicans seem to gravitate to the Republican party because of their support for a traditional, liberal laissez-fair economic policy. The libertarian types have a hard time with the Democratic party because the Democratic party is more accepting of socialist concepts and hands-on government solutions to issues and problems. It's pretty much the same reason socialists tend to lean Democratic when they choose to support a major party. It's the economic philosophies which drive that decision.

Then there are rifts within these small groups -- libertarians are not uniform, and there are even pro-Life libertarians, who can square the notion of being opposed to abortions with being libertarians. Then there are the traditional libertarians which would be strongly pro-choice on the grounds of liberty.

There are so many opinions competing within the various factions. Many Tea Partiers applaud Ayn Rand -- take that Paul Ryan, for example. He has claimed to be a fan of Ayn Rand and Objectivism. However, Ayn Rand would never have been allowed in the Tea Party were she alive. And Paul Ryan supporting a staunch, unapologetic atheist? Odd, eh?