Discussion on Sam Harris

Split from '40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack' thread

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#81  Postby tuco » Apr 28, 2019 3:02 pm

It makes no sense to you. It makes sense to me. Are you asking me to explain it to you? The answer is negative, because I dont care if it makes no sense to you and will not invest time and energy to do so.
tuco
 
Posts: 15133

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#82  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 28, 2019 4:57 pm

tuco wrote:It makes no sense to you. It makes sense to me. Are you asking me to explain it to you? The answer is negative, because I dont care if it makes no sense to you and will not invest time and energy to do so.



What's the difference between someone who knows everything but refuses to say anything, and someone who knows fuck all but likes preening?

Are you burnishing your intellectual credentials?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 23459
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#83  Postby tuco » May 10, 2019 2:03 pm

Inside the silent nation of Brunei

At first glance you could be in Singapore. The roads are smooth and well maintained, the city carefully landscaped with plenty of trees and space for pedestrians.

Bandar Seri Bagawan - the capital city of Brunei - is safe, orderly and very quiet.

It is the conspicuous domes of the mosques, some dazzlingly gilded, the large signs in Arabic script and the prominent pictures showing the bearded figure of Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah that tell you this is Brunei.

The country is one of the few absolute monarchies left in the world. The sultan has complete executive power, unconstrained by politicians or parliament.

He is concurrently Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, Defence Minister, Finance Minister and the head of Islam in Brunei. His word is law.


[snip]

Since independence the sultan has pushed Brunei towards an ever-stricter observance of Islamic precepts.

Dominik Mueller is an expert on Islam in South East Asia at the Max Planck Institute for Social Anthropology in Halle, Germany, and one of the very few academics to have studied Brunei closely.

"The sultan has increasingly turned to religion over the past three decades, especially since his first pilgrimage to Mecca in 1987. He has repeatedly stressed the obligation from Allah to introduce the Sharia penal code, and the blessings this would bring, in this world and the afterlife," he told the BBC.

"This mirrors the State Mufti's narrative. The influence of the Islamic bureaucracy cannot be overstated. Its leaders have long told the monarch and the public that Brunei must completely enforce God's law, as they interpret it."

Mr Mueller added that while the sultan "may have become personally convinced by this, he may also see the political need to ensure the continued support of the Islamic establishment, while heading off potential Islamic opposition that might question the monarchy's legitimacy."

Brunei has allowed no opposition and almost no independent civil society to exist since independence. It is still ruled under a state of emergency declared in 1962, which tightly restricts freedom of assembly and expression.

Media cannot report freely and those deemed to have infringed official limits can be shut down, as happened to the Brunei Times in 2016. There are several laws, notably the sweeping Sedition Law, which can be used against government critics.

That makes it difficult for visiting journalists. People are naturally hospitable and helpful. But we were unable to persuade anyone to speak on the record about the new Sharia penal code.


[snip]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48211193

----

I honestly .. honestly .. hope it makes sense now.
tuco
 
Posts: 15133

Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#84  Postby Spearthrower » May 10, 2019 2:59 pm

You read the news, and you hope 'it' makes sense now?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48171165

Brunei has backtracked on enforcing laws introduced last month that would have made sex between men and adultery punishable by stoning to death.

Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah on Sunday extended a moratorium on the death penalty to cover the new legislation.

The rethink follows global outcry over the laws, including boycotts and celebrity protests.

While still on the statute books for some crimes, no executions have been carried out in Brunei since 1957.



There, I read the news too: does it now make sense? I hope so.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 23459
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#85  Postby tuco » May 10, 2019 3:51 pm

Ok ..

The question was, actually two questions, about "Islamic credentials":

.. did anyone doubt the Sultan of Brunei's Islamic credentials?


.. why is it commonly used?


I believe both were answered in satisfactory manners, in a manner that would hopefully make sense, to you and quas. Though I have my doubts about quas. I mean, asking .. why is it commonly used? .. followed by .. it makes no sense .. is nonsensical. And if not, well, I am afraid I can't help anymore.
tuco
 
Posts: 15133

Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#86  Postby Spearthrower » May 10, 2019 4:13 pm

tuco wrote:
I believe both were answered in satisfactory manners, in a manner that would hopefully make sense, to you and quas. Though I have my doubts about quas. I mean, asking .. why is it commonly used? .. followed by .. it makes no sense .. is nonsensical. And if not, well, I am afraid I can't help anymore.



What actually happened was:

tuco wrote:It makes no sense to you. It makes sense to me. Are you asking me to explain it to you? The answer is negative, because I dont care if it makes no sense to you and will not invest time and energy to do so.


It all makes sense to you, and you could explain it, only you won't take the time to explain it or invest the energy to do so.

But you'll take the time to copy and paste a news article which you imply answers the question, and spend the energy writing that this should now make sense.

Only, the problem is that it still doesn't actually make sense because there's actually no serious question about the Sultan of Brunei's 'Islamic credentials', and if there actually was, and if the entire point of instituting a strict interpretation of Sharia was about burnishing his Islamic credentials with Brunei's Islamic establishment, then publicly backtracking and announcing that it won't be enforced seems rather contradictory to that motive, even self-harmful.

So we're still left wondering what exactly it is supposed to mean.

According to you, you understand perfectly. So why aren't you explaining it in your own words? Either you do understand it, and therefore it should be easy for you to give an interpretation that could be discussed (it's not like you're typically coy offering your opinion), or perhaps you don't really understand it very well at all. Perhaps, you were just taking the time to express your sense of superiority through condescension, perhaps being called on that is uncomfortable, perhaps you really do know and it's ridiculously banal to you, perhaps it's none of these things: we'll never really be able to know if you refuse to actually produce any content one way or another.

Perhaps you couldn't 'help' in the first place, not being in any position to. :thumbup:
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 23459
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#87  Postby tuco » May 10, 2019 4:37 pm

Does it bother you it makes sense to me? I have abnormal IQ, that is how I was born ;)
tuco
 
Posts: 15133

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#88  Postby Matthew Shute » May 10, 2019 5:41 pm

Thommo wrote:On the other hand I'm willing to accept that Harris might be kind of a dick, although, cards on the table I'm already pretty sure Mehdi Hasan is kind of a dick.


Yes, I'm sure that Harris has his faults. I doubt that Harris would ever want to show his face again, though, if a recording existed of him ranting that gay people are equivalent to paedophiles, and that people who disagree with his theological opinions live like "cattle". But the saintly Medhi Hasan? No person of influence working at outlets like The New Statesman or The BBC ever seemed to find enough fault with Hasan for it to diminish his career prospects, despite exactly such a recording of Hasan existing on the web for years. A cynical observer might complain that different sets of standards appear to apply (for example, for self righteous pseudo-progressive nitwits like Steve Shives) to someone like Harris versus someone like Hasan.
"Change will preserve us. It is the lifeblood of the Isles. It will move mountains! It will mount movements!" - Sheogorath
User avatar
Matthew Shute
 
Name: Matthew Shute
Posts: 3676
Age: 41

Antarctica (aq)
Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#89  Postby Spearthrower » May 10, 2019 6:12 pm

tuco wrote:Does it bother you it makes sense to me?


I don't even know if it does make sense to you... I have no access to whether or not it makes sense to you because you seem extraordinarily reticent to share your reasoning.


tuco wrote:I have abnormal IQ, that is how I was born ;)


Unlikely given that IQ isn't engraved in stone at birth.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 23459
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#90  Postby tuco » May 10, 2019 6:39 pm

Well, it was not forged in convos with you that is for sure ;)

I dont know what your problem is, it does not make sense to me.

Spearthrower wrote:
Analysts say he is seeking to burnish his Islamic credentials...


It's a strange idea - did anyone doubt the Sultan of Brunei's Islamic credentials?



What you are saying here? That the analysts, like Mr Mueller, have strange ideas about Brunei, the sultan respectively, or that what they say does not make sense to you? I hope, it's not the former because .. lol. And if its the latter, I explained or rather Mr Mueller explained it for me. I could type the same when you first engaged me on this, because that is what I've hear from a local scholar on the radio but why should I bother? Only to engage in a pointless sentence by sentence quoting discourse with you? To satisfy you? Where there is a good chance that at the end you would say some bullshit dismissing my explanation, my efforts. No way. So now you can ask Mr Mueller.

http://casca-halle-zurich.org/en/member ... k-mueller/
Tel.: +41 44 635 22 28
Email: dominik.mueller2@uzh.ch
tuco
 
Posts: 15133

Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#91  Postby Spearthrower » May 10, 2019 6:56 pm

tuco wrote:Well, it was not forged in convos with you that is for sure ;)


Your "abnormal IQ" wasn't forged in conversations with me?

No shit, Sherlock.

Incidentally, you should probably have specified on which side of abnormality your IQ allegedly tended, otherwise there's a distinct chance that signaler and receiver are reading quite different things into your responses.


tuco wrote:I dont know what your problem is, it does not make sense to me.


Oh, well you already answered that one, didn't you?

It makes no sense to you. It makes sense to me. Are you asking me to explain it to you? The answer is negative, because I dont care if it makes no sense to you and will not invest time and energy to do so.

:think:

Of course, I think that's a fucking absurd position to take on a discussion forum, so I will be more than happy to explain to you what sense I make of something, as I think you'll note I've already done.

As for what problem I have, none that are relevant here. You have a problem in this thread because you appear to have tried to condescend at people due to your allegedly vaunted understanding, but when your bluff was called, you went all coy and clammed up.

Perhaps one 'problem' I have is being British... as you've lived in the UK, you undoubtedly know that it's a typical facet of British culture that when they see someone blowing their own balloons in public, pleasure is achieved through popping them.


tuco wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Analysts say he is seeking to burnish his Islamic credentials...


It's a strange idea - did anyone doubt the Sultan of Brunei's Islamic credentials?



What you are saying here? That the analysts, like Mr Mueller, have strange ideas about Brunei, the sultan respectively, or that what they say does not make sense to you?


What I am saying is that it doesn't make any sense that the Sultan of Brunei needs to burnish his Islamic credentials. I appreciate my point may have been too subtle to detect, but it's included in that part where I wrote: did anyone doubt the Sultan of Brunei's Islamic credentials? - you know, the majority of the sentence.


tuco wrote: I hope, it's not the former because .. lol.


You hope it's not the former because lol?

And this is you trying to make a point of substance, is it?


tuco wrote: And if its the latter, I explained or rather Mr Mueller explained it for me. I could type the same when you first engaged me on this, because that is what I've hear from a local scholar on the radio but why should I bother? Only to engage in a pointless sentence by sentence discourse with you? To satisfy you? Where there is a good chance that at the end you would say some bullshit dismissing my explanation, my efforts.


Isn't it funny how you think this is all about you? :) It's a pattern I've noticed in those few members here who spend all their time desperately trying to impress on everyone just how special and clever they are.

Of course, everyone else can readily see that Quas originally cited an extract from the Guardian newspaper writing this unclear notion of the Sultan seeking to burnish his credentials, and I responded to Quas. You weren't even a figment of my imagination when I wrote my reply, not even an allegorical gnat on a bull's back, as much as you're seeking to establish yourself as having some relevance or authority here.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/nonth ... l#p2690724


Of course, one could also uncharitably point out that Quas was replying to you... and that you had literally just written:

tuco wrote:I don't really know but the short answer would probably be because the sultan wants it. Why he wants it we can only speculate about.


So you went from not having any real knowledge, to consequently both dismissing Quas condescendingly and then taking on the supposed legitmacy of Quas' source's authority all in one little fap.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 23459
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#92  Postby tuco » May 10, 2019 7:22 pm

lol

No, and again. What you saying is that it doesn't make any sense TO YOU that the Sultan of Brunei is needs seeking to burnish his Islamic credentials, because it obviously makes sense to the analysts:

Analysts say he is seeking to burnish his Islamic credentials and shore up support among the country’s conservatives due to the waning fortunes of the oil-dependent economy, which has been ravaged by recession in recent years.


Does it make sense to you now? Because it makes sense to me, just like then.

dismissing Quas condescendingly


lol where? While quas's ideas usually do not take much effort to dismiss, I actually thanked her/him for confirming what I have said. Of course, we can only speculate. Mr Mueller speculates - may have, he may, might question . The Sultan himself did not provide any explanation. However, some speculations are, obviously, more informed than others.

Either way, back to status quo because jesus .. I regret I bothered to explain.
Last edited by tuco on May 10, 2019 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tuco
 
Posts: 15133

Print view this post

Re: Discussion on Sam Harris

#93  Postby Spearthrower » May 10, 2019 7:43 pm

tuco wrote:lol


:smug:


tuco wrote:No, and again.


No, and again?

Wow tuco, you're really pushing the boat out here, aren't you?


tuco wrote:What you saying is that it doesn't make any sense TO YOU that the Sultan of Brunei needs to burnish his Islamic credentials, because it obviously makes sense to the analysts:


It's hard to maintain your facade of superiority while simultaneously fawning and failing to offer a single jot of substance.

How are you investing so much time and energy on not saying anything?


tuco wrote:
Analysts say he is seeking to burnish his Islamic credentials and shore up support among the country’s conservatives due to the waning fortunes of the oil-dependent economy, which has been ravaged by recession in recent years.


Does it make sense to you now? Because it makes sense to me, just like then.


Fantastic. So go ahead and explain why.

Or are you just going to use intellectual genuflection as your means of burnishing your intellectual credentials?



tuco wrote:
dismissing Quas condescendingly


lol where?


lol lol lol - you know when you keep writing this, the notion of your 'abnormal IQ' isn't perhaps what you intended to convey?

Where? Here:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/nonth ... l#p2693188

tuco wrote:It makes no sense to you. It makes sense to me. Are you asking me to explain it to you? The answer is negative, because I dont care if it makes no sense to you and will not invest time and energy to do so.


And here:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/nonth ... l#p2695645

tuco wrote:... would hopefully make sense, to you and quas. Though I have my doubts about quas.



tuco wrote:While quas's ideas do not take much effort to dismiss,...


Ideas aren't there to be dismissed, tuco. Ideas are there to be discussed. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong because you certainly haven't shown an inkling of ability in the discussion department.

Dismissing is easy - it's what a lot of people do to you. I'm not dismissing you. I am actively asking you to substantiate a position... any position... but you seem remarkably unwilling to do so.


tuco wrote: I actually thanked her/him for confirming what I have said.


You thanked him (a picture of a woman doesn't mean the poster is a woman) for confirming something you hadn't actually said, then when Quas agreed that the notion of the Sultan needing to burnish his Islamic credentials was odd, you immediately became condescending and dismissive.

But you still haven't explained why.

You said you didn't want to waste your time and energy explaining, but that's becoming increasingly hard to tally with your apparent willingness to spend lots of time and energy NOT explaining.


tuco wrote:Either way, back to status quo because jesus .. I regret I bothered to explain.


You didn't explain anything: you fapped.

Feel free to flee if you've got nothing but empty posturing. Of course, you could just spend a fraction of the energy and time you've spent self-gratifying your way around the subject and instead invest that time and energy into why you think that the Sultan of Brunei needing to burnish his Islamic credentials makes sense... and then you can go on and explain how that tallies with the fact that Brunei's supposedly necessary Islamic credential burnishing policy now includes the notion that no one's actually going to be punished under strict interpretation of sharia, apparently thereby undermining any burnishing that could plausibly have been achieved.

Or you could just stop pretending you're the dog's nads - that'd work too.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 23459
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Previous

Return to Nontheism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest