Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

If so, why?

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#101  Postby Thommo » Nov 06, 2015 12:42 am

leftrightleft wrote:To summarize the responses so far as to why the universe is rationally intelligible which do not involve a deity:

1) It is impossible for the universe to be any other way (suggested by Post #3)
2) The universe is not necessarily rationally intelligible and therefore asking "why" is premature (suggested by Post #32)
3) I don't know (suggested by a variety of posts)


If you just want a list then you can append 4) Anthropological principle as well, due to the way you defined universe upthread.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#102  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 06, 2015 9:38 am

Thommo wrote:
leftrightleft wrote:To summarize the responses so far as to why the universe is rationally intelligible which do not involve a deity:

1) It is impossible for the universe to be any other way (suggested by Post #3)
2) The universe is not necessarily rationally intelligible and therefore asking "why" is premature (suggested by Post #32)
3) I don't know (suggested by a variety of posts)


If you just want a list then you can append 4) Anthropological principle as well, due to the way you defined universe upthread.


That would be "The Anthropic Principle", but what's a syllable or two among Friends Linked Against Wibble?
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#103  Postby Thommo » Nov 06, 2015 3:09 pm

Oops, yeah that's what I meant! :thumbup:
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#104  Postby Nicko » Nov 06, 2015 3:24 pm

leftrightleft wrote:So I have two questions:

1) Do you agree with me that the universe seems rationally intelligible?


The bits that we've been able to produce working theories about seem "rationally intelligible".

leftrightleft wrote:2) If yes, why do you think this is so?


Because we've produced working theories about those parts.

None of which amounts to a claim that the universe is - in some ultimate sense - "rationally intelligible".

I'll put it to you this way.

What would be the subjective difference between you encountering something "rationally unintelligible" and you encountering something that was "rationally intelligible" but which you simply failed to understand?
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#105  Postby Sendraks » Nov 06, 2015 3:44 pm

Do I think the universe is rationally intelligible?

Do you think this discussion, using language, taking place via technology that allows us to communicate with people on the other side of the world - could happen in a universe that wasn't rationally intelligible?

If so - how?
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#106  Postby leftrightleft » Nov 06, 2015 3:56 pm

Nicko wrote:
leftrightleft wrote:So I have two questions:

1) Do you agree with me that the universe seems rationally intelligible?


The bits that we've been able to produce working theories about seem "rationally intelligible".

leftrightleft wrote:2) If yes, why do you think this is so?


Because we've produced working theories about those parts.

None of which amounts to a claim that the universe is - in some ultimate sense - "rationally intelligible".

I'll put it to you this way.

What would be the subjective difference between you encountering something "rationally unintelligible" and you encountering something that was "rationally intelligible" but which you simply failed to understand?


Thanks for the response. I think your answer falls in the: "It can't be any other way" category.

In answer to your question: there is no subjective difference.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#107  Postby Sendraks » Nov 06, 2015 4:00 pm

leftrightleft wrote:In answer to your question: there is no subjective difference.


Thanks - that's not an answer, simply an evasion.

Try again - if the universe were not rationally intelligible, how on earth would we be managing to have the conversation we're having now, via the technology we're using?
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#108  Postby leftrightleft » Nov 06, 2015 4:13 pm

hackenslash wrote:

leftrightleft wrote:"By what mechanism do ships disappear hull first over the horizon?" --> earth is round
"By what mechanism do lunar eclipses happen?" --> moon revolves around earth, earth revolves around sun
"By what mechanism do certain stars follow different patterns than the other stars" --> planets orbit the sun
"By what mechanism do things fall towards the Earth?" --> mass posseses an attractive force
"By what mechanism did Michelson and Morley experiment fail?" --> speed of light is constant in all reference frames
"By what mechanism does light have qualities of particles and waves?" --> wave particle duality / quantum mechanics
"By what mechanism is the universe expanding?" ---> ??? dark matter? cosmological constant?
"By what mechanism are physical constants the numbers they are?" ---> ??? MWI? Multiverse theories? Anthropic principle?
etc.


As you can see, if you have more than two functioning neurons (I make no assumptions here, justified or otherwise*), the semantic content remains unchanged by this substitution, yet this substitution shows quite clearly that these are all 'how' questions, and we're back to this idiotic bollocks already having been addressed.


"By what mechanism is the universe rationally intelligible?"

*I'm with Cito on this one; if it's justified, it isn't an assumption.


Several sources disagree with you:

"assumptions, can be unjustified or justified, depending upon whether we do or do not have good reasons for them"
--> http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/c ... ptions/484

"Much as we might like to avoid it, all scientific tests involve making assumptions — many of them justified"
--> http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/howscienceworks_13

Assuming the Earth is flat in an engineering problem may only be a justified assumption on smaller spatial scales.
Assuming the laws of the universe apply may only be a justified assumption on certain spatial/temporal scales. Maybe a multiverse or parallel universe exists in which such an assumption is no longer justified.

I should note about the bold that neither of these is a candidate for the mechanism behind the expansion of the cosmos. The former is a placeholder for the observed fact that the stars on the outer edges of many small galaxies are orbiting much faster than they should if the only source of gravity is the matter we can observe via electromagnetic interaction/emission. The latter is a fudge for general relativity that happens to serve nicely in the equations thereof as a variable denoting the rate of expansion/contraction of the cosmos. The big bang is perfectly sufficient an explanation for the expansion of the cosmos. What it doesn't serve well as is an explanation for why the rate of expansion seems to have varied, and indeed is varying as we speak. No 'constant' can ever serve as a variable, for reasons that should be fairly clear to anybody engaged in a masters in a STEM field, but the name for that term as a matter of historical contingency has stuck. Einstein was right to call it a blunder, despite what the romanticists might say about it. He had no justification for its insertion other than that he didn't like the implications of his own conclusions.

A bit of an aside, but a more interesting one than the question in the OP, which is fallacious guff.


Cool thanks for the info about dark matter.

You said that "no constant can ever serve as a variable". I know that some physicists have attempted to test whether the speed of light varies as a function of time. The speed of light is often called a "constant", but I don't see why it is necessary for it to be so. The same can be said for other physical constants: they may vary in time or space and we simply have not detected such variations. Obviously in a semantic, definitional sense, if it was found that some "constant" actually varied then, by definition, it would no longer be a constant. But the semantic definitions is not what I'm talking about.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#109  Postby leftrightleft » Nov 06, 2015 4:17 pm

Sendraks wrote:
leftrightleft wrote:In answer to your question: there is no subjective difference.


Thanks - that's not an answer, simply an evasion.


I wasn't responding to your question. I was responding to Nicko's.

???

Try again - if the universe were not rationally intelligible, how on earth would we be managing to have the conversation we're having now, via the technology we're using?


Ah, that's an entirely different question from Nicko's!

Yea, I agree that the universe is rationally intelligible. So, there is no way we could be having this conversation if the universe were not rationally intelligible.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#110  Postby Sendraks » Nov 06, 2015 4:29 pm

leftrightleft wrote:I wasn't responding to your question. I was responding to Nicko's.


My Apologies! I misread your post.

leftrightleft wrote:Yea, I agree that the universe is rationally intelligible. So, there is no way we could be having this conversation if the universe were not rationally intelligible.


thank you for responding and being patient with the error on my part.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#111  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 06, 2015 5:25 pm

leftrightleft wrote:"By what mechanism is the universe rationally intelligible?"


By means of systematic empirical investigation, also known as science. By what means is systematic investigation possible? By being systematic! Why is anything systematic? Round and round we go, diddling the philosopher's beard.

"I'm in Pittsburgh. Why am I here?"

http://www.azquotes.com/quote/752884

leftrightleft wrote:
Assuming the Earth is flat in an engineering problem may only be a justified assumption on smaller spatial scales.
Assuming the laws of the universe apply may only be a justified assumption on certain spatial/temporal scales. Maybe a multiverse or parallel universe exists in which such an assumption is no longer justified.


All your examples depend on showing empirically that there exist circumstances in which the approximation (not assumption) is no longer justified. If the speed of light were not a constant, would the surface of last scattering appear as it does? How about you answer some questions instead of parading around in your Socratic robes like you're running the show. You don't apparently have much to offer on how to apply the concept of 'assumption' besides a copypasta of some URLs you desperately scrounged up using your favorite search engine; I recommend you next try the Stanford Encyclopedia of Aimless Wibble.

Let's quote some Feynman at you: Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds.

You'll love this old whine delivered in a new bloggle:

https://sinistredestre.wordpress.com/20 ... -to-birds/
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#112  Postby surreptitious57 » Nov 06, 2015 9:54 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
How about you answer some questions instead of parading
around in your Socratic robes like you are running the show

Has the young pretender stolen your clothes Cito ha ha ha ha
Do not worry I am sure you shall get them back soon ha ha ha
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#113  Postby hackenslash » Nov 06, 2015 10:49 pm

leftrightleft wrote:"By what mechanism is the universe rationally intelligible?"


Interesting that you skip over the several posts wherein this bollocks was dealt with only to erect it anyway.

The mechanism by which the universe is rationally intelligible is quantity.

Several sources disagree with you:


Do they? Have you actually checked with them that they disagree with me, or have you taken what they've said at face value without ever checking that they've actually been rigorous in their formulations? Finding the odd source that disagrees doesn't actually lend weight to your case. You have to justify it logically, and I can certainly do that. Can you?

Either way, let's study your sources, and see if the justification can be found therein, shall we?

"assumptions, can be unjustified or justified, depending upon whether we do or do not have good reasons for them"
--> http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/c ... ptions/484


Who? What's the justification for accepting this unknown source over me? Can you do better than 'he said, she said'? Ultimately, I can demolish your quotation with a single phrase. When an assumption is justified, it's no longer an assumption, it's an evidentially supported postulate. Ares you fucking sure you want to play the semantics game with me? I guaranfuckingtee I'm much better at it than you or anybody you've ever met.

"Much as we might like to avoid it, all scientific tests involve making assumptions — many of them justified"
--> http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/howscienceworks_13


Of course scientific tests involve making assumptions. In this particular case, those assumptions are known as 'hypotheses' or, in the case of those that have been observationally justified, 'evidentially supported postulates'. My postulate is that you don't have a fucking clue of what you're on about, and the evidence is mounting rapidly.

Please continue to link to resources for elementary school teachers on matters of scientific epistemology, though. It's always fun to watch a fish out of water floundering to save face.

You said that "no constant can ever serve as a variable". I know that some physicists have attempted to test whether the speed of light varies as a function of time. The speed of light is often called a "constant", but I don't see why it is necessary for it to be so.


I'd be careful about slinging terms like 'necessary' around as well, as this has a very specific meaning. Of course it isn't necessary that the speed of light is constant (actually, light is a red herring here; use the forum search for 'light' and 'red herring' and you should have no trouble locating the post in which I detail why this is so), but it IS the case that it is, as has been demonstrated. Yes, some physicists, who happen to like winning prizes erected by fuckwits, have suggested that it might not be, but their attempts have all fallen flat (except their attempts to win the prize money off the fuckwits, of course, because a fuckwit and his money are soon parted, to paraphrase a famous name from my own business).

But the semantic definitions is not what I'm talking about.


Oh dear. ALL fucking definitions are semantic, genius. It's what semantics fucking deals with.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have the equipment.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#114  Postby hackenslash » Nov 06, 2015 10:53 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
How about you answer some questions instead of parading
around in your Socratic robes like you are running the show

Has the young pretender stolen your clothes Cito ha ha ha ha
Do not worry I am sure you shall get them back soon ha ha ha


No, this one only pretends to be a pretender. Cito need not pretend.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#115  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 06, 2015 10:58 pm

hackenslash wrote:I'm beginning to wonder if you have the equipment.


At best, I think we have a student (possibly even a doctoral student) in the history and philosophy of science who picked an episode in the history of geophysics as the focus of a thesis or dissertation. He comes in here dropping a few names from the history of his topic and regurgitates a few boilerplate quantities of a specialized branch of geophysical exploration, and gives no evidence that the mathematics makes any sense at all to him. It's happened here before, and it will happen again. What gives it away is the deepening focus on details of epistemology and semantics, the ideology of exploration, and the noob's overview of cosmology. Nothing here to see yet. Let's see what LRL comes back with.

leftrightleft wrote:A classic case is Einstein's theories of relatively...


Let's rhyme it with drivelly and that stands for "foolin'". What this calls for is an anvil salesman.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#116  Postby surreptitious57 » Nov 06, 2015 11:36 pm

hackenslash wrote:
Of course it is not necessary that the speed of light is constant ( actually light is a red herring here: use the forum
search for light and red herring and you should have no trouble locating the post in which I detail why this is so )

Light changes speed when it passes through mediums of different densities such as air and water for example
Now you linked to an article in Physics Forums which suggests that this does not happen. Unfortunately it can
no longer be accessed. So can you remember the contents of the article
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#117  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 06, 2015 11:47 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Of course it is not necessary that the speed of light is constant ( actually light is a red herring here: use the forum
search for light and red herring and you should have no trouble locating the post in which I detail why this is so )

Light changes speed when it passes through mediums of different densities such as air and water for example
Now you linked to an article in Physics Forums which suggests that this does not happen. Unfortunately it can
no longer be accessed. So can you remember the contents of the article


The speed of light in a vacuum is the highest speed at which information transmission happens. Do you really demand that people always refer to the vacuum, so you'll feel secure as to what is denoted by 'constant'?
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#118  Postby surreptitious57 » Nov 07, 2015 12:12 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Of course it is not necessary that the speed of light is constant ( actually light is a red herring here: use the forum
search for light and red herring and you should have no trouble locating the post in which I detail why this is so )

Light changes speed when it passes through mediums of different densities such as air and water for example
Now you linked to an article in Physics Forums which suggests that this does not happen. Unfortunately it can
no longer be accessed. So can you remember the contents of the article

The speed of light in a vacuum is the highest speed at which information transmission happens. Do you really
demand that people always refer to the vacuum so you will feel secure as to what is denoted by constant ?

I demand nothing of the sort and nor did I even remotely suggest that
Read the words I have typed not the ones you think I have Cito darling
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#119  Postby jamest » Nov 07, 2015 1:14 am

Why is the speed of light inside the likes of a Dyson so important? Blow me.
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Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
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Re: Do you think the universe is rationally intelligible?

#120  Postby kennyc » Nov 07, 2015 2:23 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Of course it is not necessary that the speed of light is constant ( actually light is a red herring here: use the forum
search for light and red herring and you should have no trouble locating the post in which I detail why this is so )

Light changes speed when it passes through mediums of different densities such as air and water for example
Now you linked to an article in Physics Forums which suggests that this does not happen. Unfortunately it can
no longer be accessed. So can you remember the contents of the article

The speed of light in a vacuum is the highest speed at which information transmission happens. Do you really
demand that people always refer to the vacuum so you will feel secure as to what is denoted by constant ?

I demand nothing of the sort and nor did I even remotely suggest that
Read the words I have typed not the ones you think I have Cito darling


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