God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

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God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#1  Postby Kyx » May 12, 2017 7:28 am

If God was all knowing, he would be able to predict correctly exactly what would happen in the future, including his own actions. This means that he would not be able to control his own actions, since they are predetermined, meaning he is not all powerful.

If God was all powerful, he would be able to do whatever he wanted, including change his mind. This means that he would not be all knowing, because he would not be able to predict his change of mind (and if he could predict it, he would not be all powerful, see paragraph above).
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#2  Postby zulumoose » May 12, 2017 8:05 am

This has been discussed over and over again, look up omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.

Essentially the religious often believe god knows everything, is everywhere, and has complete power. This raises all sorts of contradictions, if god is everywhere and all good, where does evil come from?

You can have 2 of the 3 up to a point (if you really were all powerful that already implies you have all 3), but all 3 at the same time makes a mockery of everything.
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#3  Postby archibald » May 12, 2017 9:12 am

Kyx wrote:If God was all knowing, he would be able to predict correctly exactly what would happen in the future, including his own actions. This means that he would not be able to control his own actions, since they are predetermined, meaning he is not all powerful.

If God was all powerful, he would be able to do whatever he wanted, including change his mind. This means that he would not be all knowing, because he would not be able to predict his change of mind (and if he could predict it, he would not be all powerful, see paragraph above).


Yes. The attributes awarded to god sometimes involve contradictions and/or paradoxes.
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#4  Postby zulumoose » May 12, 2017 9:54 am

This has been discussed over and over again, look up omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.

I missed one, omnibenevolence
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#5  Postby chairman bill » May 12, 2017 10:10 am

Ah, but God transcends mere mortal logic. And there's mysteries. You forgot mysteries. So there.
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#6  Postby zulumoose » May 12, 2017 10:17 am

I thought of a way he could do it, if he is all powerful he could create an infinite number of parallel universes where every possibly universe happens at the same time, so he is everywhere, all powerful, sees everything, and benevolence is irrelevant because since he has created every possibility, the ratio of good and evil is neutral and not a consideration at all.

The only issue is once he has created a situation like that both he and time itself are irrelevant.
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#7  Postby Matthew Shute » May 12, 2017 10:40 am

It still has the problem (a problem from a certain kind of theist's point of view, anyway) of getting rid of sin. Sin is whatever is contrary to the will of God. Well, God has just willed literally every possible configuration of matter/energy/space into existence - so no single possibility remains that can be called contrary to the will of God. So there's no sin. QED. Also, since nothing can go against the will of God, and whatever God wills is good, which in this case is 100% of everything, the whole omnibenevolence thing is redundant (along, as you say, with God himself).
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#8  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 12, 2017 12:54 pm

chairman bill wrote:Ah, but God transcends mere mortal logic. And there's mysteries. You forgot mysteries. So there.

Hey, don't knock mysteries. Mysteries are great. Especially the Unsolved kind.
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#9  Postby Manticore » May 12, 2017 1:13 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:It still has the problem (a problem from a certain kind of theist's point of view, anyway) of getting rid of sin. Sin is whatever is contrary to the will of God. Well, God has just willed literally every possible configuration of matter/energy/space into existence - so no single possibility remains that can be called contrary to the will of God. So there's no sin. QED. Also, since nothing can go against the will of God, and whatever God wills is good, which in this case is 100% of everything, the whole omnibenevolence thing is redundant (along, as you say, with God himself).



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"Murder, violence, lying, cheating, theft," Lucifer enumerated. "Sin, on the other hand, essentially includes anything that looks like it might be fun."
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#10  Postby VazScep » May 12, 2017 2:47 pm

Kyx wrote:If God was all knowing, he would be able to predict correctly exactly what would happen in the future, including his own actions. This means that he would not be able to control his own actions, since they are predetermined, meaning he is not all powerful.
Well, I reckon I can often correctly predict my own actions, but I'm not sure I negate my freewill by doing so. I mean, I predict I'll be getting a drink in a sec. I could do otherwise, of course, and some might say that's why I have freewill. But just because I could do otherwise, doesn't mean I will. And here I go, just as I predicted....
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#11  Postby Weaver » May 12, 2017 3:29 pm

It's another omnipotence paradox - similar to the old chestnut "Can an all-powerful god create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it."

To which illogical theistic apologists (but I repeat myself) say "Yes, he can create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it - and then he can lift it."
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#12  Postby archibald » May 12, 2017 6:09 pm

chairman bill wrote:Ah, but God transcends mere mortal logic. And there's mysteries. You forgot mysteries. So there.


Yes. I can almost hear god chuckling, 'Humans and their puny little brains, thinking that paradoxes and contradictions are an obstacle.'
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#13  Postby John Platko » May 12, 2017 6:57 pm

archibald wrote:
chairman bill wrote:Ah, but God transcends mere mortal logic. And there's mysteries. You forgot mysteries. So there.


Yes. I can almost hear god chuckling, 'Humans and their puny little brains, thinking that paradoxes and contradictions are an obstacle.'


Keep working at it, soon the "almost" will be gone. I've been learning about Tulpamancy - with a little meditation work hearing God chuckle should be no problem.
I like to imagine ...
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#14  Postby Manticore » May 12, 2017 7:00 pm

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Therefore, if a god is omnipotent, it must also be omnicorrupt.
So who is paying the (infinite amount of) bribes?
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#15  Postby archibald » May 12, 2017 7:31 pm

John Platko wrote:
archibald wrote:
chairman bill wrote:Ah, but God transcends mere mortal logic. And there's mysteries. You forgot mysteries. So there.


Yes. I can almost hear god chuckling, 'Humans and their puny little brains, thinking that paradoxes and contradictions are an obstacle.'


Keep working at it, soon the "almost" will be gone. I've been learning about Tulpamancy - with a little meditation work hearing God chuckle should be no problem.


I've already got enough imaginary friends, thanks.
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#16  Postby VazScep » May 12, 2017 7:36 pm

As we know from formal logic, contradiction is the ultimate power. Use it wisely.

A consistent being isn't worthy of worship.
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#17  Postby archibald » May 12, 2017 7:39 pm

VazScep wrote:A consistent being isn't worthy of worship.


My wife doesn't seem to agree with that claim.

ETA: Whoops. I misread you. I thought you typed 'inconsistent'. :oops:
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#18  Postby laklak » May 15, 2017 1:38 am

God can be whatever somebody says he/she/it is. Just like unicorns, or Gandalf. That's the nice thing about fiction, there aren't any rules.
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#19  Postby ElDiablo » May 15, 2017 5:04 pm

The beauty about making shit up, is that you can make shit up and if it has a bunch of logical holes, you just make more shit up to fill them in.
God is silly putty.
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Re: God cannot be both all knowing and all powerful

#20  Postby laklak » May 15, 2017 9:35 pm

Or play the "mysterious ways" card.
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