here and now

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Re: here and now

#81  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 01, 2017 8:32 pm

blackhash wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
blackhash wrote:Data is sometimes useful in applying reason but not always. Verification of data, framework in which it is obtained makes analysis difficult. People use intuition where no data is available(unscientific and therefore unacceptable). The social context is the source of data. Social context itself is affected by prejudices and technology. So, we are gathering data on shifting sands.
It is therefore necessary to introduce dialectical materialism to get data on individual needs(physical) and make conclusions.
The problem is : Humans are emotional. Prejudice or hate is a very vital emotion for survival. They call it "fire" in the South. One does not go beyond ones prejudices. These prejudices may be of well informed individuals.
It is necessary to decide the course of action. Which data are we referring to to bring change.
The explanation given above is necessary to distinguish between an atheist and a theist. The theists are responsible for carnage and mass murder quoting the scriptures all along which is pure BS. The theists want comfort on every level in their life. The theists have managed to convince us that all are not equal. They forget that this may mean that some people are superior to them. Yes, theists have a very wide comfort zone. Unfortunately all that is going to change in the current millennium. Mark Twain had said that the Bible contains more than 1000 lies.
We atheist have given the theists concessions. The theists sometimes show human nature making it difficult to call their bluff. The purpose of theism is Equality and Justice. The failure to realize this has been a boon for the atheists.
Thank you, theists

You do realise that your rectum is not a source for data?

E-rectum definitely.

I guess you did not get it the first time, so I'll translate: you're making shit up that has little to no basis in reality.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: here and now

#82  Postby blackhash » Apr 02, 2017 5:16 am

blackhash wrote:Data is sometimes useful in applying reason but not always. Verification of data, framework in which it is obtained makes analysis difficult. People use intuition where no data is available(unscientific and therefore unacceptable). The social context is the source of data. Social context itself is affected by prejudices and technology. So, we are gathering data on shifting sands.

These arguments are in favor of theists
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Re: here and now

#83  Postby blackhash » Apr 02, 2017 5:23 am

blackhash wrote:The problem is : Humans are emotional. Prejudice or hate is a very vital emotion for survival. They call it "fire" in the South. One does not go beyond ones prejudices. These prejudices may be of well informed individuals.
It is necessary to decide the course of action. Which data are we referring to to bring change.

It is better to identify common material needs and make changes.
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Re: here and now

#84  Postby blackhash » Apr 02, 2017 5:25 am

blackhash wrote: The theists are responsible for carnage and mass murder quoting the scriptures all along which is pure BS. The theists want comfort on every level in their life. The theists have managed to convince us that all are not equal. They forget that this may mean that some people are superior to them. Yes, theists have a very wide comfort zone. Unfortunately all that is going to change in the current millennium. Mark Twain had said that the Bible contains more than 1000 lies.
We atheist have given the theists concessions. The theists sometimes show human nature making it difficult to call their bluff. The purpose of theism is Equality and Justice. The failure to realize this has been a boon for the atheists.
Thank you, theists

This portion can be interpreted even by bird brains.
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Re: here and now

#85  Postby BlackBart » Apr 02, 2017 6:08 am

The FUA isn't difficult to follow either.
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
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Re: here and now

#86  Postby Pebble » Apr 02, 2017 6:31 am

blackhash wrote:
This portion can be interpreted even by bird brains.


Birds are rather smart, significantly less likely to ignore relevant data than theists.
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Re: here and now

#87  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 02, 2017 7:27 am

blackhash wrote:
blackhash wrote:Data is sometimes useful in applying reason but not always. Verification of data, framework in which it is obtained makes analysis difficult. People use intuition where no data is available(unscientific and therefore unacceptable). The social context is the source of data. Social context itself is affected by prejudices and technology. So, we are gathering data on shifting sands.

These arguments are in favor of theists

These assertions are nonsense.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: here and now

#88  Postby crank » Apr 02, 2017 8:05 am

Is he talking to himself or misusing quotes? Wouldn't be a surprise if he was talking to himself, at least it would be someone on his level he can converse with, someone with the same vocabulary.
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Re: here and now

#89  Postby Fallible » Apr 02, 2017 10:55 am

Sorry, have I wandered into the Unbelievable Mathematics thread by accident?
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: here and now

#90  Postby BlackBart » Apr 02, 2017 12:19 pm

One does not simply wander into the Unbelievable Mathematics thread by accident.
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
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Re: here and now

#91  Postby Fallible » Apr 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Image
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: here and now

#92  Postby BlackBart » Apr 02, 2017 3:37 pm

:awesome:
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
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Re: here and now

#93  Postby crank » Apr 02, 2017 4:14 pm

Everyone knows it's not about wandering into the Unbelievable Mathematics thread by accident, it's about giving the appearance that you have.
“When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.”
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Re: here and now

#94  Postby Alan B » Apr 02, 2017 5:44 pm

blackhash wrote:The purpose of theism is Equality and Justice.

Really?

I thought it was power and control by the priests over the gullible.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: here and now

#95  Postby Dark energy » Apr 03, 2017 1:29 am

You are ignoring the difficulty that two people have to choose to be together, and they may choose differently, so no matter how deserving you are you don't always get what you want, an ideal paradise is therefore not possible.


there is no difficulty,the person you will end up is being chosen for you according to your deeds and her deeds,i dont want to repeat the widow part ,i think i have answered it satisfactorily.

You%20are%20ignoring%20the%20difficulty%20of%20the%2072%20virgins.%20They%20are%20also%20in%20heaven,%20and%20supposedly%20getting%20what%20they%20deserve,%20I%20can't%20imagine%20that%20there%20is%20vast%20oversupply%20of%20girls%20wanting%20to%20be%201/72nd%20of%20a%20harem%20whose%20purpose%20is%20to%20be%20a%20reward%20for%20someone%20else.

there is no difficulty there,they are creations of their own,if god created alpha Centauri star binary system ,i dont know what is so hard about those preserved pearly women.

You are ignoring the difficulty of the wife (and by old I mean former) supposedly wanting to be with the husband (Definitely a man's view that this can be the only thing a woman wants) , wheras what he deserves if he has been good enough is a pile of virgins (again, obviously a man's view, by todays standard more of an immature boy's view) they can't have it both ways.

the ruling authority on the widowed wife is she will end up with the man whom she was married upon death,provided they end in jannah at first.

Why would theists have all the fun? If any gods exist they decided to set things up in such a way that the evidence is consistent with all religion being made up. Believers cannot be shown to have any better attributes as a group than gullibility and they overwhelmingly fall for the religion they are most exposed to, little or no investigation of other religions is done to try and establish truth. What makes a theist objectively more worthy than an independent thinker who cares about the truth?


the difference is,atheist and a believer will experience the same reality in the life,average life span 70 in the short life,they might enjoy their youth years 20s,30s then they might suffer here and there,from different ailments.their difference lie in the hypothetical after-life.

the air we breath,the water we drink,the space we occupy,the health we have,isnt ours,it was given to us,the easiest way to repay that favor is to recognize the one who made these essential things for us or one is reduced to ungrateful status.


i have studied christianity,islam,basic buddhism,greek mythology,that persian religion where they worship fire,cant be bothered to write,something along zora with a creator spirit called ahura mazda(cracked me up cuz mazda is a car) etc.but later found out, Abrahamic religions are similar,their fundemental agreement is the concept of ONE GOD,this is sane logic ,rational because if you imagine billions of god,then there is nothing wrong in imaging galactic god war 1,galactic god war 2 just like ww1,www2 in planet earth.

i looked at the bible,found it contradicts it self in who is the real god,jesus or the father,is the holy spirit another,what about the mother mary?

i found islam to be closer to the truth,even though i was muslim from birth,i was non-practicing,addicted to the pleasures of the flesh,etc..

it is only in my 30s ,that i have done those reseach.atheism never occured to me,because it goes against my search for truth ,no god no or little morality,stealing,lying,etc and assigning the complex evolution of the universe by some atheists to mere chance is insane in my book.
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Re: here and now

#96  Postby Macdoc » Apr 03, 2017 2:54 am

Chill the preaching shite ,....gets tiresome and breaches the FUA :nono:
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Re: here and now

#97  Postby Dark energy » Apr 03, 2017 3:22 am

i agree,it gets boring.
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Re: here and now

#98  Postby Macdoc » Apr 03, 2017 5:50 am

I'd have stronger words for it :yuk: :nono:
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Re: here and now

#99  Postby zulumoose » Apr 03, 2017 6:42 am

Dark energy wrote:

the air we breath,the water we drink,the space we occupy,the health we have,isnt ours,it was given to us,the easiest way to repay that favor is to recognize the one who made these essential things for us or one is reduced to ungrateful status.

i have studied christianity,islam,basic buddhism,greek mythology,that persian religion where they worship fire,cant be bothered to write,something along zora with a creator spirit called ahura mazda(cracked me up cuz mazda is a car) etc.but later found out, Abrahamic religions are similar,their fundemental agreement is the concept of ONE GOD,this is sane logic ,rational because if you imagine billions of god,then there is nothing wrong in imaging galactic god war 1,galactic god war 2 just like ww1,www2 in planet earth.

i looked at the bible,found it contradicts it self in who is the real god,jesus or the father,is the holy spirit another,what about the mother mary?

i found islam to be closer to the truth,even though i was muslim from birth,i was non-practicing,addicted to the pleasures of the flesh,etc..

it is only in my 30s ,that i have done those reseach.atheism never occured to me,because it goes against my search for truth ,no god no or little morality,stealing,lying,etc and assigning the complex evolution of the universe by some atheists to mere chance is insane in my book.


I don't see how a god would think you can "repay the favor" by recognizing something for which there is no evidence, why would a god care if you believe in him? He is the one who either left sufficient clues to detect him or did not.

If gods are so far above humans as to be, well, god-like, then why do you imagine the would be so petty as to have wars with each other? One the one hand you think A god can set up a heaven without jealousy or injustice or any of the less desirable human characteristics, but on the other hand you think if there are two or more of them, they will have to fight each other? Total logic failure.

Christians have no great problem with the trinity, it might be tricky to reconcile at first, but why would you imagine that gods would be easy to understand, and why would your understanding of them be an indication that you are closer to the truth? This is one of the main failings of religion, the human tendency to imagine that comfortable is more likely to be true. People settle for beliefs they can grasp, that fit in with their culture, that they are comfortable with, and imagine that this is some sort of indicator that they are more valid or more true than other beliefs. Total logic failure, this is something science demonstrates repeatedly, human traits like confirmation bias make our sense of what is right faulty, we need to remove ourselves from the equation as far as possible, using methods such as double-blind testing, or we are going to deceive ourselves. Religion is adept at using all the human traits that tend to deceive, and tends to avoid seeking objectivity.

Religion does not create morality, religion dictates a moral code that as time goes by appears to be more and more immoral, since morality is actually a product of society and demonstrably evolves. Religious concepts of morality are simply the writers idea of morality at the time of writing, and such concepts are blatantly dated. This is obvious in the way almost all non-muslim societies find Islamic law to resemble a barbaric relic of the middle ages, which is pretty much what it is. Christian morality on the other hand has adapted with the times, and they keep telling themselves society is based on christian principles, wheras it is obviously the other way round, religious morality has lagged behind and has objected to every societal advance in morality, from the ending of slavery to rights for women and children, acceptance of sexuality in different forms, and even environmental issues. Notice how in every society it is the religious fundamentalists that are the hard-liners, and end up on the wrong side of history as society moves on and leaves them behind.Where Christianity has the edge in terms of survival is that it has the ability to adapt and keep telling itself it is the standard, self deception is necessary for religions not to die in the face of an advancing society. Notice that as society ignores religious objections to changing morality and moves on, it is almost always in the direction of greater freedom, better justice, more concern for others, and less suffering. Societies that have reintroduced fundamental religious control have moved backwards on this scale, increasing injustice and suffering, against the objections of the outside world. If that does not demonstrate how religion and morality are inversely related, and atheism does not represent immorality then what more do you need? Perhaps the fact that many of the best countries to live in according to various polls are also some of the least religious societies on the planet?


If you think "chance" is how the universe developed, your understanding of the basic concepts needs a bit of work. There is a very good youtube clip of Richard Dawkins demonstrating to school groups an concept of evolution he calls "Climbing Mount Improbable", it is very easy to understand and gets an important concept across very well. I recommend you have a look, it will enable you to see how an atheist can be comfortable with the "chance" concept that makes you uncomfortable. You should probably also look for some videos on the Christian trinity concept, if others are comfortable then you must concede that you do not have the same perspective as them, and might find it interesting how they view it.
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Re: here and now

#100  Postby Pebble » Apr 04, 2017 9:05 pm

zulumoose wrote:
Dark energy wrote:

the air we breath,the water we drink,the space we occupy,the health we have,isnt ours,it was given to us,the easiest way to repay that favor is to recognize the one who made these essential things for us or one is reduced to ungrateful status.

snip...

it is only in my 30s ,that i have done those reseach.atheism never occured to me,because it goes against my search for truth ,no god no or little morality,stealing,lying,etc and assigning the complex evolution of the universe by some atheists to mere chance is insane in my book.


I don't see how a god would think you can "repay the favor" by recognizing something for which there is no evidence, why would a god care if you believe in him? He is the one who either left sufficient clues to detect him or did not.

snip.........

If you think "chance" is how the universe developed, your understanding of the basic concepts needs a bit of work. There is a very good youtube clip of Richard Dawkins demonstrating to school groups an concept of evolution he calls "Climbing Mount Improbable", it is very easy to understand and gets an important concept across very well. I recommend you have a look, it will enable you to see how an atheist can be comfortable with the "chance" concept that makes you uncomfortable. You should probably also look for some videos on the Christian trinity concept, if others are comfortable then you must concede that you do not have the same perspective as them, and might find it interesting how they view it.


Excellent post Zulumoose, all I would add is that where religion is 'seen' to be on the side of history, is when they can influence it. Thus the fundamentalist ascendancy in the Islamic world with it's rejection of open-mindedness and science actually dates to the Mongol invasion of their lands. The price of interpreting that event in a religious light has been failure to make progress in 'Islamic' lands for centuries, with the attendant gradual loss of power. Only oil has saved it from obliteration after the first world war, by ensuring collaboration between the west and local despots that used nationalism and islam to control those they 'ruled', this lazy approach is now coming back to bite - but the technological gap is now so wide that there is nothing but oblivion awaiting islam while the christians and Buddists /Taoists fight it out.
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