How many people have you de-converted?

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

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How many people have you de-converted

Poll ended at Oct 29, 2010 9:41 pm

Zero
33
72%
One to Three
11
24%
Four to Six
1
2%
Seven to Nine
1
2%
Ten or more
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 46

Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#241  Postby Wortfish » Oct 08, 2018 5:50 pm

Hermit wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
BlackBart wrote:
Theists like to say to atheists: "You cannot claim to be an atheist if you treat existence as anything other than meaningless and purposeless which is what a possible universe without a god would be like."

Atheists do not claim that a universe without god is meaningless and purposeless. We just see no evidence of a god, a god, moreover, who hands meaning and purpose down to us from up high.


The meaning you ascribe to the universe and your own lives is subjective and arbitrary as opposed to being objective and definitive. It has no firm foundation. The paradox, however, is that you expect others to conform to your own sense of meaning and purpose, especially when your personal interests and safety are concerned. Many atheists live to have their theist cake.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#242  Postby Fallible » Oct 08, 2018 5:52 pm

What is the point of you?
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#243  Postby Thommo » Oct 08, 2018 5:54 pm

It was your claim that atheists do not live their lives in a manner consistent with the meaning they ascribe though. Perhaps rather than casting stones it would be better if you'd explain how exactly you determine someone is living inconsistently with subjective ascription of meaning and purpose.

Can you give an example of something a typical atheist has done in the last few weeks that they could only do if they believed in absolute meaning, not relative meaning, and how you identify the difference between the two needs.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#244  Postby Alan B » Oct 08, 2018 7:34 pm

Wortfish wrote:Many atheists live to have their theist cake.

Yeah, I sure do. When they come a-knocking, I bite lumps out of them. :hungry:
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#245  Postby Hermit » Oct 08, 2018 9:18 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
BlackBart wrote:
Theists like to say to atheists: "You cannot claim to be an atheist if you treat existence as anything other than meaningless and purposeless which is what a possible universe without a god would be like."

Atheists do not claim that a universe without god is meaningless and purposeless. We just see no evidence of a god, a god, moreover, who hands meaning and purpose down to us from up high.

The meaning you ascribe to the universe and your own lives is subjective and arbitrary as opposed to being objective and definitive. It has no firm foundation. The paradox, however, is that you expect others to conform to your own sense of meaning and purpose, especially when your personal interests and safety are concerned. Many atheists live to have their theist cake.

No, I do not ascribe meaning to the universe or our own lives.
Yes, meaning is subjective rather than objective. It is what we say it is until we say it is something else.
No, we do not expect others to conform to your own sense of purpose. There is none of the type you have in mind.
Yes, we do expect others to conform to our values. In that we don't differ from theists.
Yes, we do have our personal interests and safety in mind. Is that something theists resile from?
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#246  Postby laklak » Oct 08, 2018 10:52 pm

Funny that 72% of the atheists surveyed here have never "de-converted" a single person. Are they just bad at it, or is the idea that roving gangs of atheists are trying to corrupt our children a false one?

Hmmm.....
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#247  Postby Wortfish » Oct 09, 2018 1:20 pm

Fallible wrote:What is the point of you?

My purpose is to grow and learn through the trials and tribulations in my life. Atheists fear pains and suffering. Theists rejoice in them because it is only through suffering that we can learn and improve ourselves.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#248  Postby Wortfish » Oct 09, 2018 1:23 pm

Hermit wrote:
Yes, we do have our personal interests and safety in mind. Is that something theists resile from?

One's interests and one's morals are not always congruent. If you are a true atheist, who believes in no supreme good, you will choose your interests over your scruples every time. A theist will always choose their morals over their personal whims.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#249  Postby laklak » Oct 09, 2018 1:55 pm

What a load of bullshit.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#250  Postby ElDiablo » Oct 09, 2018 1:56 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Yes, we do have our personal interests and safety in mind. Is that something theists resile from?

One's interests and one's morals are not always congruent. If you are a true atheist, who believes in no supreme good, you will choose your interests over your scruples every time. A theist will always choose their morals over their personal whims.

:rofl:
Are you Ray Comfort?
God is silly putty.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#251  Postby Destroyer » Oct 09, 2018 2:12 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Yes, we do have our personal interests and safety in mind. Is that something theists resile from?

One's interests and one's morals are not always congruent. If you are a true atheist, who believes in no supreme good, you will choose your interests over your scruples every time. A theist will always choose their morals over their personal whims.

These arguments are so ignorant and pathetic. Anyone who thinks that theists have a superior moral centre because they believe in a supreme God; whereas atheists are somehow devoid of equal empathy, care and consideration for their fellow humans simply because they reject any such faith in God, are foolish in the extreme.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#252  Postby zulumoose » Oct 09, 2018 2:14 pm

If you are a true atheist, who believes in no supreme good, you will choose your interests over your scruples every time


Hogwash, unless you are playing no true Scotsman here, with a hypothetical true atheist who is focussed all the time on how nothing means anything, which matches nobody except perhaps some psychopaths.

A theist will always choose their morals over their personal whims


I notice you don't have to be a TRUE theist to always choose morals. Good thing that, because the true theist would choose the morals of their theism, which often involves a lot of stoning and putting to death, slavery, genocide, etc.
Fortunately that doesn't happen much in more advanced societies these days, due mainly to theists not being true, and using society related morals, which have evolved.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#253  Postby Hermit » Oct 09, 2018 2:45 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Yes, we do have our personal interests and safety in mind. Is that something theists resile from?

One's interests and one's morals are not always congruent. If you are a true atheist, who believes in no supreme good, you will choose your interests over your scruples every time.

A mind reader you are not. You see, this atheist does not need a belief in a supreme good to realise that his interests are best served by respecting the same interests of others. The underlying principle is called reciprocity. Atheists realise that without it they'd be living in the real world equivalent of hell.

Furthermore, if your thesis that atheists will choose their interests over their scruples every time, that would make them a rather lawless bunch. You'd then have to expect few of them to be walking freely among society at large. If you cared to look at prison populations, you'd discover that this is not so.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#254  Postby Thommo » Oct 09, 2018 2:50 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Yes, we do have our personal interests and safety in mind. Is that something theists resile from?

One's interests and one's morals are not always congruent. If you are a true atheist, who believes in no supreme good, you will choose your interests over your scruples every time. A theist will always choose their morals over their personal whims.


Clearly not. This is why priests rape boys. And the fact they do is absolute disproof of your ridiculous claim.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#255  Postby Sendraks » Oct 09, 2018 2:52 pm

Wortfish wrote:
One's interests and one's morals are not always congruent. If you are a true atheist, who believes in no supreme good, you will choose your interests over your scruples every time. A theist will always choose their morals over their personal whims.


We have moral behaviour, therefore our morals must come from god. Is that it?

Which is part post-hoc rationalisation and part appeal to incredulity "I can't see how we'd have morales otherwise" all designed to fit the assumed conclusion you're working from.

Putting aside for a moment (because you'll just ignore it anyway) the vast array of evidence in evolution which provides the origins for our moral behaviour, one has to think through how laughably illogical your argument is in defence of your own position.

1. There is a god.
2. God is all powerful and all wondrous.
3. He created humans and gave us our morals.
4. Apparently being an atheist somehow robs you of the moral behaviour given to you by a god.
5. Not really clear how that works or why a god would do that.
6. Take that atheists.
Last edited by Sendraks on Oct 09, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#256  Postby Wortfish » Oct 09, 2018 3:00 pm

Hermit wrote:
A mind reader you are not. You see, this atheist does not need a belief in a supreme good to realise that his interests are best served by respecting the same interests of others. The underlying principle is called reciprocity. Atheists realise that without it they'd be living in the real world equivalent of hell.

You are advancing a utilitarian rather than an ethical philosophy. You respect others only in so far as it creates an environment amenable to yourself. But I suspect that if you (or any other atheist) were on a sinking boat with three small children (not your own), you would happily throw them overboard to save yourself.

Furthermore, if your thesis that atheists will choose their interests over their scruples every time, that would make them a rather lawless bunch. You'd then have to expect few of them to be walking freely among society at large. If you cared to look at prison populations, you'd discover that this is not so.

Or it could be that atheists are just too smart to get caught. :smoke:
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#257  Postby Sendraks » Oct 09, 2018 3:05 pm

Wortfish wrote: But I suspect that if you (or any other atheist) were on a sinking boat with three small children (not your own), you would happily throw them overboard to save yourself.


Whereas a priest would just sexually abuse them.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#258  Postby Fallible » Oct 09, 2018 3:06 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Fallible wrote:What is the point of you?

My purpose is to grow and learn through the trials and tribulations in my life. Atheists fear pains and suffering. Theists rejoice in them because it is only through suffering that we can learn and improve ourselves.


This is such shit. I don't know why you think you're in a position to make these sweeping generalisations, but just so you know, they make you look like a totally ignorant fuck-knuckle. This is why I rarely bother with you any more. There comes point at which watching such colossal twattishness is no longer fun.
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#259  Postby Fallible » Oct 09, 2018 3:09 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Yes, we do have our personal interests and safety in mind. Is that something theists resile from?

One's interests and one's morals are not always congruent. If you are a true atheist, who believes in no supreme good, you will choose your interests over your scruples every time. A theist will always choose their morals over their personal whims.


More complete shit. Whatever you do is for your own interests. For some reason you think making yourself look like a stupid bastard on the internet is in your best interest, or you sure as fuck wouldn't be molesting everyone else with your toolish behaviour right now.
Last edited by Fallible on Oct 09, 2018 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: How many people have you de-converted?

#260  Postby Fallible » Oct 09, 2018 3:13 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Hermit wrote:
A mind reader you are not. You see, this atheist does not need a belief in a supreme good to realise that his interests are best served by respecting the same interests of others. The underlying principle is called reciprocity. Atheists realise that without it they'd be living in the real world equivalent of hell.

You are advancing a utilitarian rather than an ethical philosophy. You respect others only in so far as it creates an environment amenable to yourself. But I suspect that if you (or any other atheist) were on a sinking boat with three small children (not your own), you would happily throw them overboard to save yourself.


No you don't.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
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She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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