Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#121  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 14, 2018 5:25 pm

Keep It Real wrote:It's the cathedrals that've got me stumped - nobody's brave enough to call for the destruction of such towering aesthetically unique spectacular creations and so they lord it over us (not to anthropomorphise cathedrals much) constantly insisting Xtianity literally from on high :dunno:


If you look at them from the outside, they appear convex. From the inside, concave. They really have something for everybody.

Or did you really intend for me to take your hackneyed comment seriously?
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Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#122  Postby SafeAsMilk » Aug 14, 2018 5:25 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Do you believe there are no fairies?


No. Why would I bother?

To avoid coming across as being away with the fairies?

Ah, so it's all about appearances. No thanks, I'd rather be accurate, and not give myself an unnecessary burden of proof. You're left with answering to every person with a god concept (since you said popularity isn't a concern), have fun with that.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#123  Postby BWE » Aug 14, 2018 5:34 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
BWE wrote:I have an original thought about god.


That's OK. I have a vaginal thought about god. Not necessarily in the anatomical sense, but you can go there if you like, because lots of folks have been known to worship vaginas. My thought is likely more original than yours is, but you could easily prove me wrong by upping the ante, here.

I can't really beat that one...
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#124  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 5:39 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Do you believe there are no fairies?


No. Why would I bother?

To avoid coming across as being away with the fairies?

Ah, so it's all about appearances.

She might come across that way to herself too you know...if looking in the mirror then appearances, yes.

SafeAsMilk wrote:No thanks, I'd rather be accurate, and not give myself an unnecessary burden of proof.

Not a big fan of that term TBH: the scientific method is about falsification etc.

SafeAsMilk wrote:You're left with answering to every person with a god concept (since you said popularity isn't a concern), have fun with that.

Yeah, you're probably right, better to just give up and let woo rule unchallenged in general :roll:
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#125  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 14, 2018 5:45 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Do you believe there are no fairies?


No. Why would I bother?

To avoid coming across as being away with the fairies?

Ah, so it's all about appearances. No thanks, I'd rather be accurate, and not give myself an unnecessary burden of proof. You're left with answering to every person with a god concept (since you said popularity isn't a concern), have fun with that.


I think it just means telling somebody like Tim Peake that his rapture is just not very original, especially in view pf the fact that he had to have a ride to the ISS to whirl his way through it. As a scientist, Peake should be capable of introspecting his rapture a little and censoring some of the shite he emitted thereafter. Space travel does not anoint us, or there'd be some spoons bent. Tim Peake knows that rapture sells more tickets than dry scientific observation. It's not at all about appearances, is it?

Peake's is precisely the kind of crap you have to let go by the board in favor of saying you lack belief because telling someone he's entirely full of shite, and why you think so, is too much of a burden of proof.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#126  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 6:24 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:It's the cathedrals that've got me stumped - nobody's brave enough to call for the destruction of such towering aesthetically unique spectacular creations and so they lord it over us (not to anthropomorphise cathedrals much) constantly insisting Xtianity literally from on high :dunno:


If you look at them from the outside, they appear convex. From the inside, concave. They really have something for everybody.

Or did you really intend for me to take your hackneyed comment seriously?


Might be hackneyed to you m8 but I've never heard/read it before. PS I don't believe you're 6.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#127  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 14, 2018 6:29 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:It's the cathedrals that've got me stumped - nobody's brave enough to call for the destruction of such towering aesthetically unique spectacular creations and so they lord it over us (not to anthropomorphise cathedrals much) constantly insisting Xtianity literally from on high :dunno:


If you look at them from the outside, they appear convex. From the inside, concave. They really have something for everybody.

Or did you really intend for me to take your hackneyed comment seriously?


Might be hackneyed to you m8 but I've never heard/read it before. PS I don't believe you're 6.


I'm sure that's right, KIR; you're probably the first person in recorded history to wax eloquent about how architecturally grand cathedrals appear to one, or that this grandeur has never been used by pundits to try to take god-botherers more seriously.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#128  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 6:31 pm

I should probably stop complaining about AGW too then eh?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#129  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 14, 2018 6:37 pm

Keep It Real wrote:I should probably stop complaining about AGW too then eh?


Every little god wants his chosen people to be fruitful and multiply. It's not as if you are suddenly discovering that too much fruitfulness has something to do with AGW, e.g., by deforestation. Some people who ostensibly don't believe in gods still seem to be expecting a miracle, and that people will somehow get wise, or that it is their holy mission to show them the truth.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#130  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 6:42 pm

The way my mind's set these days pretty much EVERYTHING has something to do with AGW :boohoo: oh well :cheers:
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#131  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 6:56 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Fallible wrote: I don't believe things because to do so is of no use to me. There's no noble principle behind it. If I can't know if something exists or not, I don't bother trying to fill in the gaps, take a leap into the unknown or whatever.


I take it you're not a fan of William Hill then :lol:


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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#132  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 6:58 pm

Of course I do, that's why emoji
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#133  Postby BWE » Aug 14, 2018 7:03 pm

what do you do for a living, fallible?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#134  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 7:29 pm

What do I do for a living...apparently nothing but I live still...I think Theorease has something to say on the topic...

Regarding work, I'm a :insert restricting label to do with money here:
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#136  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 7:44 pm

BWE wrote:
Fallible wrote:
BWE wrote:Meh. Have no belief is inaccurate in most cases.


[citation needed]

I suppose this whole thread should be titled, "my personal opinion regarding this inane topic " but since it isn't, let's just remember that the phrase prefaces all the posts in it.


How about you just refrain from making claims you can't back up? That would save a serious amount of time.

My feeling is that it's pretty disingenuous to avoid the direct statement since gods are only proposed by humans and not believing in them requires a rejection of those proposals. But, you do you.


I will. Observe.

So you've gone from inaccurate to disingenuous, neither of which is correct, and you'd need to be capable of reading minds in order to have any evidence for your claims. I don't have to avoid anything to not believe in gods. I can sit and hear claims all day long and simply not achieve the mental state which comprises belief.

I can't believe - ahahaha - we're still having this discussion on this forum, and that the same old crap is still being wheeled out. It must be one of the oldest themes of the forum. There are no conditions to not believing claims which need to be fulfilled, bar one.

we refers to humans in this case.


If you were talking about the forum, where people do from time to time bring these claims, and they are refuted by other people who are here often for that very purpose, you may have had a point. As it stands, your sweeping generalisation does not stand a cat's chance in hell of being evidenced, and everyday life does not consist of 'someone proposes a belief and we decide whether to believe it'. When was the last time you decided to believe anything? This is just nonsense.



Really? Because from here, it just looks like you're playing with words. What do you mean 'actively do not believe'? How is that substantially different from 'I have no belief'? Belief in not-god is active belief.

Um. The point being that not believing in God is a claim about a proposal,


:lol: No it isn't. It's the state of not having a belief in god. Why you feel the need to fancify it I don't know. Maybe you're uncomfortable with uncertainty.

namely that the person who doesn't believe the proposal believes that the proposal is false.


Um. Not believing in god is a claim about a proposal that the person who doesn't believe the proposal believes that the proposal is false. Yeah - you may need to work on that sentence.

I know the argument you're trying to make. Just so you know, you're not at that stage with it yet where you can present it as truth. This is partly because I know my own position and state of mind better than you do.There need to be far more workings-out shown to enable me to believe that you have what goes on in my head sussed out better than I do. For instance, I well know that 'I have no belief in gods' accurately describes my mind state in that regard, and I also know that I am doing nothing but expressing the truth. So when you say that is inaccurate or disingenuous, this is not something that has any truth in it. I'm far from unique.

God is a claim.


So you believe.

Either you accept the claim of you reject the claim. That's how the logic works for me. Ymmv.


Either you accept the claim or reject the claim. But you know, beyond this one 'claim', that's not even true of you. There have been claims made to you which you have not formed an either/or belief about, claims of so little interest to you, or of which you are so unsure, that your belief switch remains in the off position. Why would it be different for you when it comes to god? All this of course putting to one side the fact that non-believers don't go about their lives actively rejecting claims about gods all the time. They just go about their lives.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#137  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 7:52 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Of course I do, that's why emoji


OK fair enough.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#138  Postby BWE » Aug 14, 2018 8:01 pm

Fallible wrote:
BWE wrote:
Fallible wrote:
BWE wrote:Meh. Have no belief is inaccurate in most cases.


[citation needed]

I suppose this whole thread should be titled, "my personal opinion regarding this inane topic " but since it isn't, let's just remember that the phrase prefaces all the posts in it.


How about you just refrain from making claims you can't back up? That would save a serious amount of time.

how about you apply it to your posts on the topic as well? This is not a case of objective facts. It is a case of the peculiarities of language usage on an individual basis. TIA.


My feeling is that it's pretty disingenuous to avoid the direct statement since gods are only proposed by humans and not believing in them requires a rejection of those proposals. But, you do you.


I will. Observe.

So you've gone from inaccurate to disingenuous, neither of which is correct, and you'd need to be capable of reading minds in order to have any evidence for your claims. I don't have to avoid anything to not believe in gods. I can sit and hear claims all day long and simply not achieve the mental state which comprises belief.

let's review. This is a case of how we individually understand an idea. Not a case of objective fact. It does indeed seem just a little disingenuous to me. And you'd have to have some sort of mind control device to change that.


I can't believe - ahahaha - we're still having this discussion on this forum, and that the same old crap is still being wheeled out. It must be one of the oldest themes of the forum. There are no conditions to not believing claims which need to be fulfilled, bar one.

When people confuse internal facts with external facts, the fun can go on forever and two diametrically opposed views can both be correct!

we refers to humans in this case.


If you were talking about the forum, where people do from time to time bring these claims, and they are refuted by other people who are here often for that very purpose, you may have had a point. As it stands, your sweeping generalisation does not stand a cat's chance in hell of being evidenced, and everyday life does not consist of 'someone proposes a belief and we decide whether to believe it'. When was the last time you decided to believe anything? This is just nonsense.


The last time? Reading a news article about 5 minutes ago.

Really? Because from here, it just looks like you're playing with words. What do you mean 'actively do not believe'? How is that substantially different from 'I have no belief'? Belief in not-god is active belief.

Um. The point being that not believing in God is a claim about a proposal,


:lol: No it isn't. It's the state of not having a belief in god. Why you feel the need to fancify it I don't know. Maybe you're uncomfortable with uncertainty.

namely that the person who doesn't believe the proposal believes that the proposal is false.


Um. Not believing in god is a claim about a proposal that the person who doesn't believe the proposal believes that the proposal is false. Yeah - you may need to work on that sentence.

I know the argument you're trying to make. Just so you know, you're not at that stage with it yet where you can present it as truth. This is partly because I know my own position and state of mind better than you do.There need to be far more workings-out shown to enable me to believe that you have what goes on in my head sussed out better than I do. For instance, I well know that 'I have no belief in gods' accurately describes my mind state in that regard, and I also know that I am doing nothing but expressing the truth. So when you say that is inaccurate or disingenuous, this is not something that has any truth in it. I'm far from unique.

Let's review. The topic isn't one of objective fact. The only truth claims involved is the truth that we each individually see it the way we have stated we see it.

God is a claim.


So you believe.

seriously?


Either you accept the claim of you reject the claim. That's how the logic works for me. Ymmv.


Either you accept the claim or reject the claim. But you know, beyond this one 'claim', that's not even true of you. There have been claims made to you which you have not formed an either/or belief about, claims of so little interest to you, or of which you are so unsure, that your belief switch remains in the off position. Why would it be different for you when it comes to god? All this of course putting to one side the fact that non-believers don't go about their lives actively rejecting claims about gods all the time. They just go about their lives.


Carpenters don't go about their jobs hammering in the same nail over and over either.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#139  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 8:02 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Fallible wrote:

No. Why would I bother?

To avoid coming across as being away with the fairies?

Ah, so it's all about appearances. No thanks, I'd rather be accurate, and not give myself an unnecessary burden of proof. You're left with answering to every person with a god concept (since you said popularity isn't a concern), have fun with that.


I think it just means telling somebody like Tim Peake that his rapture is just not very original, especially in view pf the fact that he had to have a ride to the ISS to whirl his way through it. As a scientist, Peake should be capable of introspecting his rapture a little and censoring some of the shite he emitted thereafter. Space travel does not anoint us, or there'd be some spoons bent. Tim Peake knows that rapture sells more tickets than dry scientific observation. It's not at all about appearances, is it?

Peake's is precisely the kind of crap you have to let go by the board in favor of saying you lack belief because telling someone he's entirely full of shite, and why you think so, is too much of a burden of proof.


Lol, no it isn't. Not believing someone's inane ramblings are factual does not entail believing something else.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#140  Postby BWE » Aug 14, 2018 8:06 pm

Fallible wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
To avoid coming across as being away with the fairies?

Ah, so it's all about appearances. No thanks, I'd rather be accurate, and not give myself an unnecessary burden of proof. You're left with answering to every person with a god concept (since you said popularity isn't a concern), have fun with that.


I think it just means telling somebody like Tim Peake that his rapture is just not very original, especially in view pf the fact that he had to have a ride to the ISS to whirl his way through it. As a scientist, Peake should be capable of introspecting his rapture a little and censoring some of the shite he emitted thereafter. Space travel does not anoint us, or there'd be some spoons bent. Tim Peake knows that rapture sells more tickets than dry scientific observation. It's not at all about appearances, is it?

Peake's is precisely the kind of crap you have to let go by the board in favor of saying you lack belief because telling someone he's entirely full of shite, and why you think so, is too much of a burden of proof.


Lol, no it isn't. Not believing someone's inane ramblings are factual does not entail believing something else.


something else like believing the inane inner ramblings are not factual?
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