Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#141  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 8:07 pm

Fallible wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Of course I do, that's why emoji


OK fair enough.


I wonder if perhaps having one of the highest post counts on this forum might be bad for your health fal, in a manifest psychosomatic stress kinda way...
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#142  Postby SafeAsMilk » Aug 14, 2018 8:17 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Fallible wrote:

No. Why would I bother?

To avoid coming across as being away with the fairies?

Ah, so it's all about appearances.

She might come across that way to herself too you know...if looking in the mirror then appearances, yes.

If one's view of themselves hinges on whether they believe there are no fairies or not, then they've probably got much bigger problems to deal with.

SafeAsMilk wrote:No thanks, I'd rather be accurate, and not give myself an unnecessary burden of proof.

Not a big fan of that term TBH: the scientific method is about falsification etc.

This isn't an experiment, it's an argument. But if you want to open yourself up to having to hunt down every fairy purported to exist, it's your time to waste. I'd rather the person making the claim do the legwork for it.

SafeAsMilk wrote:You're left with answering to every person with a god concept (since you said popularity isn't a concern), have fun with that.

Yeah, you're probably right, better to just give up and let woo rule unchallenged in general :roll:

Not giving myself an unnecessary burden of proof doesn't preclude challenging woo.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#143  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 8:31 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Not a big fan of that term TBH: the scientific method is about falsification etc.

This isn't an experiment, it's an argument. But if you want to open yourself up to having to hunt down every fairy purported to exist, it's your time to waste. I'd rather the person making the claim do the legwork for it.

Falsify my belief there are no fairies, as in the six-inch three-dimensional flying sentient real-world variety. This is new...Extraordinary beliefs require extraordinary evidence to be even considered worthy of rigorous scientific falsification (the true test), beliefs which fly in the face of documented scientific reality, evolution, geology etc for example.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#144  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 8:43 pm

BWE wrote:how about you apply it to your posts on the topic as well?


That's nice, but I am responding to your claims here.

This is not a case of objective facts. It is a case of the peculiarities of language usage on an individual basis.


Thank you for explaining to me what it's a case of. Moving on, no it isn't. With regard to yourself, it appears to be a case of you making sweeping claims, at times regarding the inner workings of other people's minds, which make little or no sense, about which you appear totally unconcerned.

TIA.


I don't know what this is.

let's review.


OK, professor.

This is a case of how we individually understand an idea.


Thank you again for taking the time to explain things to me.

Not a case of objective fact.


Yeah, I've been knocking around the forum for a while. I managed to get by with my understanding of what these discussions are all about before you showed up. I'm not sure how, but I did. Instead of retreating to vapid truisms to hide the superficiality of your argument, why don't you actually engage?

It does indeed seem just a little disingenuous to me.


I'm really not concerned with how things seem, I think I made that point to KIR. Accuracy is what I'm after, and your view as expressed does not present an accurate description of my position or state. That I remonstrate with how things seem to you is not an example of me making claims that I can't back up, or of confusing perceptions with objective facts, or internal with external facts.

And you'd have to have some sort of mind control device to change that.


No I wouldn't, I'd just need to say the right things in order for your belief switch to be pressed. But why do you think I want to? I'm just pointing out to you that I'm not being disingenuous. If you find it sits more comfortably with you to assume I'm a liar, well, that doesn't give me the desire to change your mind. Quite the opposite.

When people confuse internal facts with external facts, the fun can go on forever and two diametrically opposed views can both be correct!


I don't know what to say to this, other than well done for extrapolating something from my words that was never even implied. You said this to my comment that only one thing is needed in order to qualify as having no belief. Two diametrically opposed views can both be correct? Where did you pull this from? What exactly are you finding so hard to get about the concept that this is not a matter of things being correct or incorrect in a binary fashion? For all the 'splaining you're doing to me about how we're not dealing with objective facts, you seem to be making extraordinarily hard work of the concept.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#145  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 8:44 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Of course I do, that's why emoji


OK fair enough.


I wonder if perhaps having one of the highest post counts on this forum might be bad for your health fal, in a manifest psychosomatic stress kinda way...


Do you? OK.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#146  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 8:48 pm

BWE wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Ah, so it's all about appearances. No thanks, I'd rather be accurate, and not give myself an unnecessary burden of proof. You're left with answering to every person with a god concept (since you said popularity isn't a concern), have fun with that.


I think it just means telling somebody like Tim Peake that his rapture is just not very original, especially in view pf the fact that he had to have a ride to the ISS to whirl his way through it. As a scientist, Peake should be capable of introspecting his rapture a little and censoring some of the shite he emitted thereafter. Space travel does not anoint us, or there'd be some spoons bent. Tim Peake knows that rapture sells more tickets than dry scientific observation. It's not at all about appearances, is it?

Peake's is precisely the kind of crap you have to let go by the board in favor of saying you lack belief because telling someone he's entirely full of shite, and why you think so, is too much of a burden of proof.


Lol, no it isn't. Not believing someone's inane ramblings are factual does not entail believing something else.


something else like believing the inane inner ramblings are not factual?


That's right, it doesn't entail that.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#147  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 8:55 pm

I feel my personal narcissism, and stuff that shoves me in that direction is bad for my health anyway.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#148  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 9:01 pm

OK?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#149  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 9:03 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Not a big fan of that term TBH: the scientific method is about falsification etc.

This isn't an experiment, it's an argument. But if you want to open yourself up to having to hunt down every fairy purported to exist, it's your time to waste. I'd rather the person making the claim do the legwork for it.

Falsify my belief there are no fairies, as in the six-inch three-dimensional flying sentient real-world variety. This is new...Extraordinary beliefs require extraordinary evidence to be even considered worthy of rigorous scientific falsification (the true test), beliefs which fly in the face of documented scientific reality, evolution, geology etc for example.


Beliefs don't require evidence, extraordinary or otherwise. They're what come into the equation when you lack evidence. To understand how this works, consider that you say you believe in not-god. Ask yourself why you don't instead make the claim that god doesn't exist.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#150  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 9:04 pm

Same fing innit?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#151  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 9:06 pm

Aaaaaah there's u all having a go at the word "belief" again...bloody semantics, burdened we are with archaic language remnents.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#152  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 9:09 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Same fing innit?


Beliefs and claims are the same thing?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#153  Postby Alan B » Aug 14, 2018 9:15 pm

sig.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#154  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 9:25 pm

That is asserted in the noosphere whether one likes it or not, and need be addressed methinks.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#155  Postby Dolorosa » Aug 14, 2018 9:30 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:No thanks, I'd rather be accurate, and not give myself an unnecessary burden of proof.

Not a big fan of that term TBH: the scientific method is about falsification etc.


If I'm not mistaken, the idea that scientific method is about 'falsifiability' is somewhat outdated - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability#Criticisms

Regardless, I have a nagging feeling that 'burden of proof' and 'falsifiability' in scientific method are two contextually different things and are there to deal with different claims.

On a separate note, bear in mind I haven't read this whole thread cover to cover, what definition of 'belief' do people use here? Has that definition been agreed upon?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#156  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 9:35 pm

Having a pop at Popper Beatrice ETA fuck me I I actually wrote Beatrice there - Dolorosa I meant? I'm in awe of your amo if so....
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#157  Postby Dolorosa » Aug 14, 2018 9:55 pm

KIR, maybe it's just me but the more I read stuff the more I feel that any attempt at universal rule tends to fall flat in the face of exceptions, as is in the case of Popper. That is not to say there is no value to his claim of 'falsifiability.' It may well be that he himself recognised its weakness, which would explain why he switched his position from describing what is a scientific method to what it ought to be. And when it comes to regulating behaviour, well, that's just a call for rebellion, which may explain Feyerabend...
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#158  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 10:03 pm

Keep It Real wrote:The way my mind's set these days pretty much EVERYTHING has something to do with AGW :boohoo: oh well :cheers:


It's of such magnitude I pin my stars to it..like the mathematically hypothesised hell...oh that tickle....anything less appears to me as avoiding the elephant in the room and is therefore unacceptable.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#159  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 14, 2018 10:07 pm

What, if anything, have you done to try and help the situation recently plant?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#160  Postby Fallible » Aug 14, 2018 10:08 pm

What are you talking about?
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