Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#21  Postby OlivierK » Jul 26, 2018 2:26 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:Let's modify your example so it's more relevant.

Someone has told you that there's margarine in your fridge. As far as you know you've never put margarine in your fridge, and nobody else has had the chance to put anything in there since the last time you checked. But to be fair, you've never actually seen or interacted with margarine, you're just going by what that someone described to you. You also know that this someone is heavily invested in there being margarine in your fridge. What's more, other somebodies have told you that a different brand of margarine which they prefer is in your fridge, and that the other people were either lying or deluded about their types being in your fridge.

You'd be perfectly justified in thinking they're all full of shit. But there's no shame in admitting that there is the possibility, however unlikely it seems, that margarine has somehow made it into your fridge, though you'd note that admitting this is not in any way evidence that there is margarine in your fridge. But you're not obliged to go check the fridge every time one of these boneheads wants to tell you their favorite brand is in your fridge. You'd be perfectly justified in feeling that it's their job to do the work of supporting their claim. And after a few hundred times of them opening your fridge and saying "It was just here, I swear!", you shouldn't feel too bad about wishing they'd just go away.

:nod:

Of course, rather than looking and not finding any, most would offer excuses why actually looking is not fair, or why looking and not finding any is evidence of a defective/unsuitable fridge.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#22  Postby laklak » Jul 26, 2018 2:57 am

That particular fridge obviously lacks the sensus margarinatis.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#23  Postby Hermit » Jul 26, 2018 3:41 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Sendraks wrote:Yes, it is shown that there is no Loch Ness monster.


Right then; so what's the difference between believing there is no Loch Ness monster and believing there is no god? ie:

KIR wrote:
There is no god is again an evidenced position. The planet earth and it's astronomic neighbourhood exists. It has been scoured from top to bottom (NB to any reasonable level of resolution; much as with the "top to bottom" scouring of Loch Ness). There is nothing there that fits the description of god, nor any evidence of god's (Nessie's) actions. The positive claim of god's existence is disproven.

Unlike the mythical Loch Ness creature, the putative god is undefined. There is no way to exhaustively test his existence. In fact, there is no way of testing the existence of a supernatural, invisible being at all.

No. Unlike the existence of a supernatural being that created the universe, the existence of half a kilo of margarine in your refrigerator or Nessie in her Loch can be tested. No scientist has come up with a device that could check in every nook and cranny of the universe, let alone detect a supernatural being if there were one.

I am happy saying that I'd believe in the existence of a supernatural being that created the universe if a test could be devised and convincing evidence for the existence of such a being was produced as a result of it. Until then I am happy to say that I lack of such a belief.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#24  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 26, 2018 4:26 am

OlivierK wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Let's modify your example so it's more relevant.

Someone has told you that there's margarine in your fridge. As far as you know you've never put margarine in your fridge, and nobody else has had the chance to put anything in there since the last time you checked. But to be fair, you've never actually seen or interacted with margarine, you're just going by what that someone described to you. You also know that this someone is heavily invested in there being margarine in your fridge. What's more, other somebodies have told you that a different brand of margarine which they prefer is in your fridge, and that the other people were either lying or deluded about their types being in your fridge.

You'd be perfectly justified in thinking they're all full of shit. But there's no shame in admitting that there is the possibility, however unlikely it seems, that margarine has somehow made it into your fridge, though you'd note that admitting this is not in any way evidence that there is margarine in your fridge. But you're not obliged to go check the fridge every time one of these boneheads wants to tell you their favorite brand is in your fridge. You'd be perfectly justified in feeling that it's their job to do the work of supporting their claim. And after a few hundred times of them opening your fridge and saying "It was just here, I swear!", you shouldn't feel too bad about wishing they'd just go away.

:nod:

Of course, rather than looking and not finding any, most would offer excuses why actually looking is not fair, or why looking and not finding any is evidence of a defective/unsuitable fridge.

Or that the margarine cannot show itself or it would violate your free will not to use it.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#25  Postby Oldskeptic » Jul 26, 2018 5:37 am

Keep It Real wrote:I predict the input of Thomas Eshuis at this juncture...


I know this has been done to death here in many ways but it still doesn't sit well with me so largely here we go again in it's very own dedicated thread...

If I lack belief in there being margarine in the fridge, because I remember throwing the empty tub out yesterday and don't remember buying any more yet, is it not fair, rational and inevitable to believe there is no margarine in the fridge?


A nonsensical analogy is what you have there.
There is nothing so absurd that some philosopher will not say it - Cicero.

Traditionally these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead - Stephen Hawking
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#26  Postby LucidFlight » Jul 26, 2018 6:38 am

What is this nonsense about margarine? I praise the lard.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#27  Postby newolder » Jul 26, 2018 9:15 am

^ Isn't it laird in Scotland or am I confusing terms for lumps of white fat, again?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#28  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 26, 2018 9:28 am

newolder wrote:^ Isn't it laird in Scotland or am I confusing terms for lumps of white fat, again?

Lard you mean?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#29  Postby Sendraks » Jul 26, 2018 9:39 am

newolder wrote:^ Isn't it laird in Scotland or am I confusing terms for lumps of white fat, again?


Yes, its Laird in Scotland and Boris Johnson in England.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#30  Postby newolder » Jul 26, 2018 10:18 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
newolder wrote:^ Isn't it laird in Scotland or am I confusing terms for lumps of white fat, again?

Lard you mean?

Lard: Rendered cow fat - an accompaniment for a slice of bread.
Laird (Scot.): Generic name for the owner of a large, long-established Scottish estate (aka White fat).

I was playing with the words - LucidFlight is from Edinburgh, iirc and Sendraks got the drift. :thumbup:
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#31  Postby LucidFlight » Jul 26, 2018 11:04 am

Aye, plenty o' laird-erses aboot.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#32  Postby Alan B » Jul 26, 2018 7:29 pm

Hermit wrote:I am happy saying that I'd believe in the existence of a supernatural being that created the universe if a test could be devised and convincing evidence for the existence of such a being was produced as a result of it. Until then I am happy to say that I lack of such a belief.

But then you would have evidenced-based knowledge which, as far as I'm concerned, would kick 'belief' (and 'non-belief') into the long grass.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#33  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 26, 2018 7:55 pm

Alan B wrote:
Hermit wrote:I am happy saying that I'd believe in the existence of a supernatural being that created the universe if a test could be devised and convincing evidence for the existence of such a being was produced as a result of it. Until then I am happy to say that I lack of such a belief.

But then you would have evidenced-based knowledge which, as far as I'm concerned, would kick 'belief' (and 'non-belief') into the long grass.


Perhaps he intended "worship". Who knows? It's an old-fashioned concept of a deity, and practically implies one that is interested in people, otherwise, it won't be demanding worship. This old-fashioned deity was dreamed up by ignorant, superstitious people of long ago. Lacking belief in this slipshod old 'creator' concept ignores our knowledge of whence we inherit the notion of creator-deity, which is there in ancient scriptures written by pathetically ignorant goat-roasters.

More likely, he's just preparing a debating text for dealing with modern dumbass goat-roasters who really do believe in such a creator-deity, but I don't see any of those present in this thread. If one happens by, I've given my suggestions for saying something stronger than that in the meantime, one just "lacks belief" in the god-botherers' deity or deities, or variants they might throw at you after you've pointed out how unbelievable the goat-roaster deity really is.

It's almost cutting off one's nose to spite one's face to suppress the recognition of the kind of ignorance required to invent a creator-deity. Pining for old times, already brought up in this thread, is something one can only make excuses for.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#34  Postby Fenrir » Jul 27, 2018 12:22 am

God is omniplastic donchaknow.

It's characteristics change to suit the occasion.

Tis the most powerful of all the omni's.

Fulll on in-your-face and beardy and personal when you need to punish them filthy sluts and inferior minorities. Vague and increasingly distant when the discussion turns to specifics of observed reality.

It's a feature not a bug.
Religion: it only fails when you test it.-Thunderf00t.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#35  Postby Hermit » Jul 27, 2018 1:34 am

Alan B wrote:
Hermit wrote:I am happy saying that I'd believe in the existence of a supernatural being that created the universe if a test could be devised and convincing evidence for the existence of such a being was produced as a result of it. Until then I am happy to say that I lack of such a belief.

But then you would have evidenced-based knowledge which, as far as I'm concerned, would kick 'belief' (and 'non-belief') into the long grass.

I'm not really keen about getting into a semantic squabble concerning the meaning of the word "belief". Let me just point out that there is more than one.

As for "evidenced-based knowledge", I am even less inclined to discuss epistemology in order to establish its status.

Cito di Pense wrote:Perhaps he intended "worship". Who knows?

The expression "believe in the existence of" should have made it clear enough what I do and what I don't mean. Add "Nessie" instead of "god" to the end of it if it helps you understand.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#36  Postby laklak » Jul 27, 2018 2:06 am

101 level Willie Lane Craig "debating" tactics. Heh heh heh heh. He said "belief" Heh heh heh heh. Our evidence is just as good as yours; therefore, God. Checkmate, atheists!

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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#37  Postby aban57 » Jul 27, 2018 2:34 pm

Sendraks wrote:

What can be said with certainty is that the claims made for the various actions of deities referred to in various scriptures, are not evidenced as having occurred or indeed are possible within our understanding of science. I would go further that if one is going to hinge the existence of a deity on the basis of those acts, then that deity cannot be shown to exist. However, most theists don't hinge their beliefs in that way.


:this: The actions of the bible's god are demonstrably impossible, hence his existence is impossible.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#38  Postby i have no avatar » Jul 27, 2018 11:31 pm

Yeah, I've heard that one particular brand of margarine (or is it butter :scratch:) is the progeny of the milk. They both reside in the fridge, but somehow they are unseen outside the fridge too. You can't peek inside, but if you don't believe in them, you spend eternity in the oven on broil, because your great grandparents or something ate some fruit. :roll:
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#39  Postby laklak » Jul 28, 2018 1:30 am

Margarine is an invention of Satan. It masquerades as a healthy alternative but then it clogs your arteries with crud and KILLS you, just as Satan clogs your soul with sin and takes your Eternal Life. A fitting product from the Father of Lies. Unsurprisingly, he is also responsible for the execrable beef "jerky" they sell here in the shops.
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#40  Postby BlackBart » Jul 28, 2018 6:58 am

Image

I don't know if it's in the fridge or not.
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