Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#321  Postby BWE » Aug 19, 2018 5:59 pm

Hermit wrote:
BWE wrote:
Hermit wrote:
BWE wrote:My point is that the god hypotheses which can be rejected, should be rejected. They are active propositions. I am not opposed to philosophizing about the concepts that have been attached to god in various ways btw. But interventionism has been falsified. To lack a belief regarding interventionism is to either feign ignorance or be ignorant of the world today. As soon as we drop all bits of interventionism we no longer have the gods that people argue about. There is no point in a religion based on a non-interventionist god.

My claim is a bit more overall than just the mind body issue. Heaven and hell are interventionism based ideas. Take away the intervention and the point goes too. Therefore, it is an active, not passive claim that I have rejected the proposals of pre-scientific peoples regarding god. That actually is the only god that matters. The rest is personal. I am not going to argue that a monk who goes off a d meditates for 30 years won't learn something. In fact I think he is likely to. And I'm happy to use the word god in that context. But that god has nothing to do with anything that we would blindly replace science with. There is a reason physics and psychology cannot be reconciled completely. That doesn't invalidate either physics or psychology though. Although it may invalidate some efforts to use the same methodology for both.

That's what I keep saying, albeit using different words.

So you have been saying that you believe there is no god?

Hermit wrote:Personal, interfering, meddlesome gods, such as the Christian god can be empirically tested for. I have proposed one test scenario earlier. If it turned out positive and reproducible, I'd say "Yes, I believe in the existence of that god (with the proviso that all empirical knowledge is provisional), but until such evidence is furnished I believe your god does not exist."

Close enough?

Definitely in the ballpark anyway. It seems to me that you could shorten it some but yeah. It is a positive belief then for both of us.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#322  Postby BWE » Aug 19, 2018 6:05 pm

Fallible wrote:
BWE wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
BWE wrote:The rest is personal.


Precisely. It's just grandiose to "lack belief" in somebody else's personal whatever. What one lacks instead is empathy.

That is a pretty good precis. It gets right at the part that seems disingenuous to me.


You say pretty good precis, I say complete bollocks. The glaring question for me is why would someone hold an actual belief about someone else's whatever? Why do you feel the need to do that? What exactly is wrong with saying 'ok, that's nice,' and leaving it at that? It's hilarious to me that you think it disingenuous and grandiose to lack a belief in someone's personal belief, and yet spend your time criticising someone's personal lack of belief. I suppose you call that humble?

You've put the telescope the wrong way. The point is that the personal whatever part is personal and cannot really be examined by others. But the propositions offered can be. So, the question, "do you believe in god?" Really requires some additional information. If you say "the xian god" or whatever tradition, the answer should involve your assessment of the proposition. It can be yes, no, or I don't know. There really isn't a fourth option that I can see. You seem to think there is a fourth option and I just don't see it.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#323  Postby BWE » Aug 19, 2018 6:17 pm

Fallible wrote:Pretty much the last 3 responses. There's no need to start loading people who say they don't have belief with motives that can only ever be assumed. Contrary to what BWE has said, god is not a claim when discussing belief. If someone tells me they believe in god, they're claiming the belief, not the god.

The truth value there is that the other person has a belief. That is unassailable except possibly in court. It also does not seem to me to be the issue up for discussion. Afaict, the issue is whether you personally believe whatever and the truth value there is your answer. We go around the circle and each give our answers and then discuss how we arrived at those answers. My perspective is that it is more intellectually honest to say the point as a positive statement of disbelief because we are addressing a specific proposition.
As I said, I don't give a shit about what people believe, whether it's a god or not-god. I only care what either theists or atheists who have faith without evidence think they can dictate to me about what I should believe.

I think you should believe in kindness and beauty.


No, Cito, get bent. The irony is, he just accused me of not being able to stay out of his shit privately. He sits there criticising others' 'inner worlds', making all sorts of uncharitable, unfalsifiable noises about them, and accuses others of not staying out of his business. Makes even less sense than his usual bilge. Either his emotions are causing him to behave irrationally or he's trolling again.

Cito is a complicated dude with strong opinions that are usually difficult for me to make sense of. I've found that it helps me understand his point to read his posts in the voice of animal from the muppets. That may not work for you though.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#324  Postby surreptitious57 » Aug 19, 2018 6:45 pm

BWE wrote:
it helps me understand his point to read his posts in the voice of animal from the muppets

I always imagine him as a robe and sandal wearing guru of antiquity dispensing wisdom to the masses

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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#325  Postby surreptitious57 » Aug 19, 2018 10:05 pm

All joking aside though I highly rate Cito as he is one of the most intelligent contributors in the online atheist community
His dry wit belies a truly analytic mind I can not always understand because on an intellectual level he is so so far ahead
of me. I am therefore both honoured and humbled to be a member of the same forum as he [ and no this is not sarcasm ]
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#326  Postby BWE » Aug 19, 2018 11:05 pm

Being super smart is both a gift and a liability. I will say that when I understand him, his point is usually well taken by me or at least makes me think in ways that I hadn't considered.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#327  Postby Macdoc » Aug 20, 2018 1:34 am

I supposed there are few that buy the koolaid :roll:
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#328  Postby BWE » Aug 20, 2018 1:43 am

There's always someone
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#329  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 20, 2018 8:38 am

surreptitious57 wrote:All joking aside though I highly rate Cito as he is one of the most intelligent contributors in the online atheist community


That's really kind of a back-handed compliment, surr. Do you have any idea how little one has to have on the ball to be among the most intelligent contributors to the online atheist community, all of whom are members of this forum?

BWE wrote:Cito is a complicated dude with strong opinions that are usually difficult for me to make sense of.


Did you have any difficulty working out what I just said? If not, then you can count yourself among the most intelligent contributors to the online atheist community, at least according to surreptitious57.

This is a terrible argument, because intelligence is pretty much completely uncorrelated with atheism, notwithstanding people's attempts to correlate education with atheism. Another way to say this is, "School don't make ya smart."
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#331  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 22, 2018 5:26 pm

Fallible wrote:
It was a long process in my case to come to terms with the fact that figures of authority are in large measure an illusion.


This is the most mind-bogglingly incomprehensible piece of detritus I think I've ever read here. Get over yourself?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#332  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 22, 2018 5:35 pm

John Bowlby? Largely an illusion. Charles Darwin? Largely an Illusion. David Cronenberg? Largely an Illusion. Rob Haigh? Largely an illusion. Rosa Parks? Largely an illusion. Enid Blyton? Largely an illusion...etc.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#333  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 22, 2018 5:57 pm

Officer X? Largely an illusion.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#334  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 22, 2018 5:59 pm

It would appear that jamest and myself are not the only ones who sporadically experience feelings/delusions of grandeur methinks. Can't help when tattooed strangers turn up at your door with flowers.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#335  Postby Fallible » Aug 22, 2018 6:03 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Fallible wrote:
It was a long process in my case to come to terms with the fact that figures of authority are in large measure an illusion.


This is the most mind-bogglingly incomprehensible piece of detritus I think I've ever read here. Get over yourself?


You first?
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#336  Postby Fallible » Aug 22, 2018 6:05 pm

Keep It Real wrote:It would appear that jamest and myself are not the only ones who sporadically experience feelings/delusions of grandeur methinks. Can't help when tattooed strangers turn up at your door with flowers.


What the fuck are you talking about? Figures of authority as in authority figures, 'do as I say and not as I do'.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#337  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 22, 2018 6:22 pm

At least the qualifying protocol for police officers is based on merit, and not popularity.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#338  Postby Fallible » Aug 22, 2018 6:25 pm

:lol:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
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She never listened to no hater, liar,
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#339  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 22, 2018 6:27 pm

I was just thinking how there are zero politicians on my list of personal authority figures...I mean I thought of putting Churchill on there but he was never really a politician and also inverse Godwin
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#340  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 22, 2018 6:28 pm

I refuse to name any police officers....
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