Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#41  Postby Alan B » Jul 28, 2018 10:20 am

I believe it could be but I have no knowledge that it is, er, or, er, is not.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#42  Postby newolder » Jul 28, 2018 11:00 am

BlackBart wrote:Image

I don't know if it's in the fridge or not.

I can't believe it's not neither.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#43  Postby felltoearth » Jul 28, 2018 6:30 pm

BlackBart wrote:Image

I don't know if it's in the fridge or not.

It's both butter and margarine until it is observed.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#44  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 13, 2018 1:04 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Tossing the assertions into the bin doesn't mean "rejecting" those entities, because, wait for it, those entities could actually exist, but the assertions presented about them could be completely wrong.


Planet earth has been scoured pretty well from top to bottom for thousands of years looking for god-type entities. If there are any they are invisible, silent and do nothing, as far as anybody can tell...so even if they do exist, they might as well not.

Back to old Nessie - is it not possible that she lived in a subterranean cave and the entranceway collapsed thereby hiding her? Thommo says he doesn't believe in Nessie because circa "we've searched with sufficient thoroughness to support that view" and yet the same cannot be said of gods.

I think this stands up although it could probably do with a tweak or two:

Keep It Real wrote:How about: "I believe there is no god as any remotely well known religious movement describes ze."


SafeAsMilk wrote:So you're open to a deity if it's not remotely well known? Popularity seems like a poor way to decide something like that.


Not popularity, just any god that has so far been described/had its actions described and is extant in the noosphere - in this way all described deities to date AFAIK (and who can disagree with that whilst preserving a shred of modesty) are believed to not exist, by myself at least.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#45  Postby Fallible » Aug 13, 2018 2:45 pm

Why waste the energy on actively believing? Don’t know, can’t know, makes no difference to my life at all, don’t care, and until somebody tries to make it an issue, can’t be arsed to.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#46  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 13, 2018 4:00 pm

Well, back to the margarine, I'd hardly call it a Herculean struggle to believe there isn't any in the fridge, more a position where one has slid off the fence (perhaps the margarine was used to grease it). "I lack belief in gods" sounds wishy-washy, weak, lame, avoidant, non-commital etc and given how much religion poisons everything sliding off said fence in such a way might make mrs atheist more "tooled up" - seems that way to me anyway.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#47  Postby surreptitious57 » Aug 13, 2018 5:55 pm

You want to know there is any marge in the fridge you just go and open the bloody door. But what door
do you have to open to find out if God exists ? The door to your mind ? That doesnt sound very reliable
given the enormous popularity of God belief coupled with a total lack of evidence for said God or Gods

Now margarine definitely exists while Gods existence cannot be demonstrated
Therefore a more appropriate analogy is required to make this argument valid
Just think of something that really exists but for which there is zero evidence
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#48  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 13, 2018 6:08 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:You want to know there is any marge in the fridge you just go and open the bloody door. But what door do you have to open to find out if God exists ? The door to your mind ? That doesnt sound very reliable given the enormous popularity of God belief coupled with a total lack of evidence for said God or Gods

The point is I have enough information to believe there is no margarine in the fridge without having to open the door. Yes, covert ninja locksmith mischief making margarine deployers might have snuck a tub in there, but it's so profoundly unlikely I dismiss that (for example; there are many many others) possibility and believe there is no margarine in the fridge. Any God I've ever heard written/spoken of is similarly profoundly unlikely and so I believe they don't exist.

surreptitious57 wrote:Now margarine definitely exists while Gods existence cannot be demonstrated
Therefore a more appropriate analogy is required to make this argument valid
Just think of something that really exists but for which there is zero evidence

Why can't God's existence be demonstrated? Despite the tireless insistence of theists that it has been demonstrated? Because, IMO it doesn't exist. If you've got a problem with the analogy MAKE YOUR OWN VERSION (yet again) instead of nipping at my heels kthnx.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#49  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 13, 2018 6:16 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Any God I've ever heard written/spoken of is similarly profoundly unlikely and so I believe they don't exist.


That's my cue to ask again how any account of a god is not either going to be (A) a crude disguise on one you've already heard about or (B) an attempt to sell you on the idea of a god you might not recognize as an example of (A), but I remain skeptical that any human is capable of doing that, since all they can provide you with are copycat gods, or painting the letters G-O-D on the faceplate of some technological wonder.

I regard as a separate and unrelated problem that of your finding something you deem worthy of worship, although it's quite possible that (A) or (B) above might provide you with such.

So what about the possibility of believing that there is nothing you would ever find worthy of worship? That might be a much harder promise to make to yourself, but at least avoids the stupid 'existence' question, which is taken care of by remembering that all the gods you've ever heard of are copies of ones dreamt up by extremely ignorant, scientifically-backward people.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Aug 13, 2018 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#50  Postby surreptitious57 » Aug 13, 2018 6:20 pm

I am not the one making the analogy here. If I point out flaws in your reasoning then the onus is
upon YOU to come up with a better analogy rather than telling me to come up with one instead
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#51  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 13, 2018 6:22 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:I am not the one making the analogy here. If I point out flaws in your reasoning then the onus is
upon YOU to come up with a better analogy rather than telling me to come up with one instead


You didn't point out flaws in anyone's reasoning. The margarine bit is a joke.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#52  Postby surreptitious57 » Aug 13, 2018 6:32 pm


He seems to be taking his ridiculous analogy way too seriously for it to be just a joke
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#53  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 13, 2018 6:39 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
He seems to be taking his ridiculous analogy way too seriously for it to be just a joke


Well, then the joke's on you, too; whether he's taking it seriously or not, it's not something to be taken seriously to the point of imagining that you're pointing out flaws in anyone's reasoning.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#54  Postby BlackBart » Aug 13, 2018 6:41 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:Tossing the assertions into the bin doesn't mean "rejecting" those entities, because, wait for it, those entities could actually exist, but the assertions presented about them could be completely wrong.


Planet earth has been scoured pretty well from top to bottom for thousands of years looking for god-type entities. If there are any they are invisible, silent and do nothing, as far as anybody can tell...so even if they do exist, they might as well not.



Or maybe they're hiding on the dark side of Pluto...under a rock. Or...they can magic it so we just don't notice them.
See, the problem is you can speculate 'til you're blue in the face, or you can just leave the donkey work of providing evidence to someone who makes a positive claim and lack belief until then (Which will be a fuck of a long time)


Back to old Nessie - is it not possible that she lived in a subterranean cave and the entranceway collapsed thereby hiding her? Thommo says he doesn't believe in Nessie because circa "we've searched with sufficient thoroughness to support that view" and yet the same cannot be said of gods.


Do you have evidence of such a cave? A cave which could support just one creature since at least the 1930s? If not, why would we need to believe there was such a cave? Again, all we have to do lack belief in the creature until someone can provide evidence


I think this stands up although it could probably do with a tweak or two:


Not really. See above. Further lake monster is falsifiable. All you have to do pragmatically search the lake. Gods, like invisible blue dragons, aren't falsifiable.


Not popularity, just any god that has so far been described/had its actions described and is extant in the noosphere - in this way all described deities to date AFAIK (and who can disagree with that whilst preserving a shred of modesty) are believed to not exist, by myself at least.


What does existing in the noosphere bring to the party? What the difference between a god that's been described and one that hasn't? Is there evidence for either? If not, what's the difference?

You seem to be tying yourself up in knots for no good reason - lacking belief works well enough; I also merely lack belief in Harry Potter - they may exist somewhere in this possibly infinite universe an actual Harry Potter, but until such time as he can be demonstrated, I'll lack belief in him, which for all intents and purposes is indistinguishable from a positive disbelief. Same for gods.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#55  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 13, 2018 6:49 pm

BlackBart wrote:You seem to be tying yourself up in knots for no good reason - lacking belief works well enough...

You may well be right there I think. The dialogue circa belief in big G, in it's most prevalent form at least does, after all, go like this:

A) Do you believe in God?
B) No.

So what B has said is that they do, indeed, lack belief in God. Maybe we had it right all along :eh:
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#56  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 13, 2018 6:51 pm

ETA although my personal usual answer as B is "Which God?" 'cos it exposes some of theists' stupidity I reckon.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#57  Postby Fallible » Aug 13, 2018 7:13 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Well, back to the margarine, I'd hardly call it a Herculean struggle to believe there isn't any in the fridge, more a position where one has slid off the fence (perhaps the margarine was used to grease it).


I didn't say how hard it was to believe. I merely asked you why you would waste the energy. Even if it's only a tiny effort, why bother expending it to believe in not-god?

"I lack belief in gods" sounds wishy-washy, weak, lame, avoidant, non-commital etc


1) No it doesn't, it describes precisely where I lounge picking my nose while people go about god-believing and not-god-believing.

2) Who the fuck cares how it 'sounds'? Why are you prioritising style over utility? If a word or phrase precisely describes my position, why on earth would your primary concern be how it sounds?


and given how much religion poisons everything sliding off said fence in such a way might make mrs atheist more "tooled up" - seems that way to me anyway.


Question 1 - who is 'mrs atheist'?

Question 2 - what do you mean 'tooled up'?

Statement - your false equivalence is showing regarding belief and religion.
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#58  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 13, 2018 7:23 pm

BlackBart wrote:Not really. See above. Further lake monster is falsifiable. All you have to do pragmatically search the lake. Gods, like invisible blue dragons, aren't falsifiable.


Much as with Sadam's WMDs, Nessie could have been moved on the sly, no? Or clambered out of the lake and waddled to the ocean...or...or...etc. Which Gods? I seem to recall a certain mountain climbing exercise involving mount Olympus...
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#59  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 13, 2018 7:31 pm

Fallible wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Well, back to the margarine, I'd hardly call it a Herculean struggle to believe there isn't any in the fridge, more a position where one has slid off the fence (perhaps the margarine was used to grease it).


I didn't say how hard it was to believe. I merely asked you why you would waste the energy. Even if it's only a tiny effort, why bother expending it to believe in not-god?

It's less effort than naming the country of which Trump is president, or stating how many fingers you've got. I know you work hard but it really is an infinitesimal amount of effort, if any at all.

Fallible wrote:
"I lack belief in gods" sounds wishy-washy, weak, lame, avoidant, non-commital etc


1) No it doesn't, it describes precisely where I lounge picking my nose while people go about god-believing and not-god-believing.

2) Who the fuck cares how it 'sounds'? Why are you prioritising style over utility? If a word or phrase precisely describes my position, why on earth would your primary concern be how it sounds?


1) Yes, it does.
2) The words we use are not without utility. Seriously?


Fallible wrote:
and given how much religion poisons everything sliding off said fence in such a way might make mrs atheist more "tooled up" - seems that way to me anyway.


Question 1 - who is 'mrs atheist'?

Question 2 - what do you mean 'tooled up'?

Statement - your false equivalence is showing regarding belief and religion.


1) Any/all atheists
2) With effective "weapons" at ones disposal (NB. Irrelevant to the apathetic/uninterested atheist).

I dislike both religion and belief in all guises so far encountered :dunno:
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Re: Lack of belief in gods =/= believing there are no gods?

#60  Postby BlackBart » Aug 13, 2018 7:36 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
BlackBart wrote:Not really. See above. Further lake monster is falsifiable. All you have to do pragmatically search the lake. Gods, like invisible blue dragons, aren't falsifiable.


Much as with Sadam's WMDs, Nessie could have been moved on the sly, no?


Do you have evidence for either being moved? No? Why would I need to accept they have then?


Or clambered out of the lake and waddled to the ocean...or...or...etc.


Again, you could erect hypotheses you're blue in the face. All of which would be trivially disposed of with 'Got evidence?'

Which Gods? I seem to recall a certain mountain climbing exercise involving mount Olympus...


And how would that make them falsifiable exactly?
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