GrahamH wrote:

aliihsanasl wrote:In my opinion the mechanism working during prayer, meditation or listening religious speech is the usage of a switch in our brain to alienate ourselves from daily problems and responsibilities and switching ourselves into a deep relaxing state of mind. In short its self hypnose with the internet we're learning more and more about our bodies and psychology. What Im wondering is, are these new relaxation methods will replace traditional prayer methods probably not in short term because religions have heaven promise and hell punishment.

What surprises me is an atheist person's practicing worships which have more long term promises. For example a student can pray before an exam and this can calm him right before the exam or right after a close relative's death you can feel very depressed and pray for his/her soul. But my uncle who I know an extreme atheist sacrificing 1 year old lamb when he bough a new car and rubbing its blood to numberplate thinking that this blood will be last this car interfere and wont have accident. He did the same when he bought a new house. This is so ridiculous imo from one side you say there isnt any superior power controlling things around us and then sacrificing an animal to it.

You don't have to believe in god or follow a religion to be superstitious and none of these beliefs are really rational. It doesn't seem that surprising that some people who don't believe in a traditional religion/god might still have superstitions about non-sentient supernatural forces. In that case the sacrifice wouldn't be 'to' a god or a plea heard by a sentient, it could be thought as a magic potion that affects a blind unfeeling universe. Humans are strange and make up all sorts weird nonsense.

GrahamH wrote:

Matthew Shute wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:Consider. If I have a math problem, I work on it for twenty minutes and something im my brain records many things about the problem and that work. My brain has changed physical state. Now if I go off and do something without any occurrent thoughts about the problem, when I run into a matching pattern, that same area of the brain lights up again and a solution presents itself.

This too is prayer.

If you want to point at a process that doesn't involve any noticeable praying, and just call it "prayer", sure.

Unless you're working on the maths problem and you say, "this is just too hard; I don't have a prayer." But then you go away and have your Eureka moment, and you finally work it out. "Oh. I must've had a prayer after all."

Beyond that, we seem to be talking about the prayer of the gaps.

I read SoS as saying not that thinking about maths problem is prayer, but that thinking about something, anything, has physical effects in the brain that can modify how it later performs in finding solutions, and praying might also do that.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that just putting things into words of a prayer might do that. Talking a problem through to yourself aloud might do that. Getting to an answer is complex and not principally conscious. We have to prime ourselves to allow the solution to come, and when it comes it often seems a little bit miraculous. Voice your problems and desires aloud as if to God and it could help you find solutions for yourself that will surprise you.

aliihsanasl wrote:In my opinion the mechanism working during prayer, meditation or listening religious speech is the usage of a switch in our brain to alienate ourselves from daily problems and responsibilities and switching ourselves into a deep relaxing state of mind. In short its self hypnose with the internet we're learning more and more about our bodies and psychology. What Im wondering is, are these new relaxation methods will replace traditional prayer methods probably not in short term because religions have heaven promise and hell punishment.

What surprises me is an atheist person's practicing worships which have more long term promises. For example a student can pray before an exam and this can calm him right before the exam or right after a close relative's death you can feel very depressed and pray for his/her soul. But my uncle who I know an extreme atheist sacrificing 1 year old lamb when he bough a new car and rubbing its blood to numberplate thinking that this blood will be last this car interfere and wont have accident. He did the same when he bought a new house. This is so ridiculous imo from one side you say there isnt any superior power controlling things around us and then sacrificing an animal to it.

Shagz wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
So my rule number one is: no getting silly about this shit.

I agree. However, no offense, but it seems to me that you're getting silly about shit and violating your own rule. First you try to paint yourself as a hardcore rationalist; then you confess to having some silly notions about the universe.

Silly notion #1: Because the Earth happens to be in the thermal zone where the sort of life that you expect to find on Earth can exist, it's special.

Er.. no shit. Is Venus less special then? How come you didn't marvel at how special Jupiter is? I think we both know the answer to that: By singling out the Earth, you're implying that the Earth and the life here has some kind of special place in the universe. Has it ever occurred to you that you, a life form from Earth, might be biased when you assume that the Earth and its life are special somehow?

Silly notion #2: We're an organism that resonates with synchronicity.

I don't think we can rationally call humanity an "organism," when we're clearly a collection of organisms. Maybe someone could make the argument that we're similar to a superorganism like a bee hive, but maybe that's pushing it. On top of that, you throw in "resonates with synchronicity," whatever that means. By synchronicity, do you mean the random occurrences that human beings, for one reason or another, attach significance to? In a universe with nonstop random occurrences, isn't it expected that some of them would happen to appear to be related to each other in some meaningful way to us? Why do you keep going on about synchronicity, anyway? Even though you took care to make it clear that you aren't a theist, I get the impression that you think there's something supernatural about it, and that you hold some kind of reverence for it, and that this notion of synchronicity, for you, has replaced the notion of god as the cause of the universe. Or something. Otherwise, why would you keep bringing it up? How come you aren't going on about some other aspect of the universe? Why is synchronicity in particular noteworthy?

Frankly, I suspect that you, sir, hold quite a lot of silly notions that some here would call "woo". I suspect that you aren't quite as hard as you think you are. Therefore, it doesn't seem that surprising to me that you take up praying from time-to-time. Don't get me wrong -- it's interesting, but I would be more surprised if someone more hardcore confessed to praying.

Silly notion #1: Because the Earth happens to be in the thermal zone where the sort of life that you expect to find on Earth can exist, it's special.

Er.. no shit. Is Venus less special then? How come you didn't marvel at how special Jupiter is? I think we both know the answer to that: By singling out the Earth, you're implying that the Earth and the life here has some kind of special place in the universe. Has it ever occurred to you that you, a life form from Earth, might be biased when you assume that the Earth and its life are special somehow?

Silly notion #2: We're an organism that resonates with synchronicity.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

aliihsanasl wrote:In my opinion the mechanism working during prayer, meditation or listening religious speech is the usage of a switch in our brain to alienate ourselves from daily problems and responsibilities and switching ourselves into a deep relaxing state of mind. In short its self hypnose with the internet we're learning more and more about our bodies and psychology. What Im wondering is, are these new relaxation methods will replace traditional prayer methods probably not in short term because religions have heaven promise and hell punishment.

What surprises me is an atheist person's practicing worships which have more long term promises. For example a student can pray before an exam and this can calm him right before the exam or right after a close relative's death you can feel very depressed and pray for his/her soul. But my uncle who I know an extreme atheist sacrificing 1 year old lamb when he bough a new car and rubbing its blood to numberplate thinking that this blood will be last this car interfere and wont have accident. He did the same when he bought a new house. This is so ridiculous imo from one side you say there isnt any superior power controlling things around us and then sacrificing an animal to it.

Do you see any difference between praying to do well on a test and rubbing murdered lamb blood on your car?

aliihsanasl wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

aliihsanasl wrote:In my opinion the mechanism working during prayer, meditation or listening religious speech is the usage of a switch in our brain to alienate ourselves from daily problems and responsibilities and switching ourselves into a deep relaxing state of mind. In short its self hypnose with the internet we're learning more and more about our bodies and psychology. What Im wondering is, are these new relaxation methods will replace traditional prayer methods probably not in short term because religions have heaven promise and hell punishment.

What surprises me is an atheist person's practicing worships which have more long term promises. For example a student can pray before an exam and this can calm him right before the exam or right after a close relative's death you can feel very depressed and pray for his/her soul. But my uncle who I know an extreme atheist sacrificing 1 year old lamb when he bough a new car and rubbing its blood to numberplate thinking that this blood will be last this car interfere and wont have accident. He did the same when he bought a new house. This is so ridiculous imo from one side you say there isnt any superior power controlling things around us and then sacrificing an animal to it.

Do you see any difference between praying to do well on a test and rubbing murdered lamb blood on your car?

No there is no difference from my perspective, both serving to cheat self and to feel better.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

Matthew Shute wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:Consider. If I have a math problem, I work on it for twenty minutes and something im my brain records many things about the problem and that work. My brain has changed physical state. Now if I go off and do something without any occurrent thoughts about the problem, when I run into a matching pattern, that same area of the brain lights up again and a solution presents itself.

This too is prayer.

If you want to point at a process that doesn't involve any noticeable praying, and just call it "prayer", sure.

Unless you're working on the maths problem and you say, "this is just too hard; I don't have a prayer." But then you go away and have your Eureka moment, and you finally work it out. "Oh. I must've had a prayer after all."

Beyond that, we seem to be talking about the prayer of the gaps.

I read SoS as saying not that thinking about maths problem is prayer, but that thinking about something, anything, has physical effects in the brain that can modify how it later performs in finding solutions, and praying might also do that.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that just putting things into words of a prayer might do that. Talking a problem through to yourself aloud might do that. Getting to an answer is complex and not principally conscious. We have to prime ourselves to allow the solution to come, and when it comes it often seems a little bit miraculous. Voice your problems and desires aloud as if to God and it could help you find solutions for yourself that will surprise you.

Exactly. The important point for me is that if we are such beings as this self talk works for us then it's easy to see how religion has become such a thing. I think religion has become a Great Problem. We need to take a deeper look, rather than just discounting everything about it as nonsense. We need to Secularize this Shit.

Say a man named John is upset about recently being dumped. By simply reflecting on his feelings in the third person ("Why is John upset?"), John is less emotionally reactive than when he addresses himself in the first person ("Why am I upset?").
"Essentially, we think referring to yourself in the third person leads people to think about themselves more similar to how they think about others, and you can see evidence for this in the brain," said Jason Moser, MSU associate professor of psychology. "That helps people gain a tiny bit of psychological distance from their experiences, which can often be useful for regulating emotions."
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 102906.htm

John Platko wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

Matthew Shute wrote:

If you want to point at a process that doesn't involve any noticeable praying, and just call it "prayer", sure.

Unless you're working on the maths problem and you say, "this is just too hard; I don't have a prayer." But then you go away and have your Eureka moment, and you finally work it out. "Oh. I must've had a prayer after all."

Beyond that, we seem to be talking about the prayer of the gaps.

I read SoS as saying not that thinking about maths problem is prayer, but that thinking about something, anything, has physical effects in the brain that can modify how it later performs in finding solutions, and praying might also do that.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that just putting things into words of a prayer might do that. Talking a problem through to yourself aloud might do that. Getting to an answer is complex and not principally conscious. We have to prime ourselves to allow the solution to come, and when it comes it often seems a little bit miraculous. Voice your problems and desires aloud as if to God and it could help you find solutions for yourself that will surprise you.

Exactly. The important point for me is that if we are such beings as this self talk works for us then it's easy to see how religion has become such a thing. I think religion has become a Great Problem. We need to take a deeper look, rather than just discounting everything about it as nonsense. We need to Secularize this Shit.

Much of the "shit" is being secularized. Many people engage in mindfulness meditation, CBT self talk, etc. without thinking they are borrowing ideas that religions have evolved. Sadly, most can't connect the dots of how their practice relates to religious practice and both sides seem to have strong biases which make it hard for them to see the linkage between the different forms of essentially the same human activity. In fact, when I brought up the linkage between prayer and CBT self talk some time ago it was an idea that seemed to cause many members to .

Sadly, I think your idea is a bit too advanced for most in 2017.

Fallible wrote:The vomiting was because it was obvious that you have no clear idea what you're talking about, and as a result, your 'idea' so resembled trolling that it made no practical difference whether it was or not. You are continuing in the same vein here. For example, the notion you hold that sceptics don't realise where mindfulness comes from. Every time I introduce it to someone, I preface by saying it is a technique which originated in eastern religion. Your 'idea' rests upon your bizarre, idiosyncratic definitions of prayer and God. By now we know that you don't mean what pretty much anyone else means when they say 'god', but this disconnect results in immediate misunderstandings which persist through your windy, condescending 'explanations', as though it is everyone else who has the problem.

SpeedOfSound wrote:
A point that is not being made by your treatment is in what way religions and their practice accidentally yield the same results. What are the mechanics here?

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
A point that is not being made by your treatment is in what way religions and their practice accidentally yield the same results. What are the mechanics here?

Surely it is not accidental, it's human psychology common to humans of all creeds and eras. Whatever the mechanics they are quite possibly the same whether the participant thinks they are speaking to God or not.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

John Platko wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

I read SoS as saying not that thinking about maths problem is prayer, but that thinking about something, anything, has physical effects in the brain that can modify how it later performs in finding solutions, and praying might also do that.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that just putting things into words of a prayer might do that. Talking a problem through to yourself aloud might do that. Getting to an answer is complex and not principally conscious. We have to prime ourselves to allow the solution to come, and when it comes it often seems a little bit miraculous. Voice your problems and desires aloud as if to God and it could help you find solutions for yourself that will surprise you.

Exactly. The important point for me is that if we are such beings as this self talk works for us then it's easy to see how religion has become such a thing. I think religion has become a Great Problem. We need to take a deeper look, rather than just discounting everything about it as nonsense. We need to Secularize this Shit.

Much of the "shit" is being secularized. Many people engage in mindfulness meditation, CBT self talk, etc. without thinking they are borrowing ideas that religions have evolved. Sadly, most can't connect the dots of how their practice relates to religious practice and both sides seem to have strong biases which make it hard for them to see the linkage between the different forms of essentially the same human activity. In fact, when I brought up the linkage between prayer and CBT self talk some time ago it was an idea that seemed to cause many members to .

Sadly, I think your idea is a bit too advanced for most in 2017.

One can only try. It's so damned important that we get this right now that I have trouble shutting up about it.

SpeedOfSound wrote:
What is that thing? How does that work? What are we going to name that thing? I like to name it prayer

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
A point that is not being made by your treatment is in what way religions and their practice accidentally yield the same results. What are the mechanics here?

Surely it is not accidental, it's human psychology common to humans of all creeds and eras. Whatever the mechanics they are quite possibly the same whether the participant thinks they are speaking to God or not.

John Platko wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

John Platko wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

Exactly. The important point for me is that if we are such beings as this self talk works for us then it's easy to see how religion has become such a thing. I think religion has become a Great Problem. We need to take a deeper look, rather than just discounting everything about it as nonsense. We need to Secularize this Shit.

Much of the "shit" is being secularized. Many people engage in mindfulness meditation, CBT self talk, etc. without thinking they are borrowing ideas that religions have evolved. Sadly, most can't connect the dots of how their practice relates to religious practice and both sides seem to have strong biases which make it hard for them to see the linkage between the different forms of essentially the same human activity. In fact, when I brought up the linkage between prayer and CBT self talk some time ago it was an idea that seemed to cause many members to .

Sadly, I think your idea is a bit too advanced for most in 2017.

One can only try. It's so damned important that we get this right now that I have trouble shutting up about it.

I applaud your enthusiasm for the subject. And I certainly think it's helpful to understand this. When I think about the religious figures from the Bible (JC etc.), and being Catholic, saints of all flavors, that I learned about when I was young, it changes the way I interpret those stories now that I'm aware that these psychological processes were driving the experiences of those people. No supernatural sauce needed. Just normal, albeit sometimes extreme, human psychological processes at work and the dynamics of how humans interpret and deal with such things.

surreptitious57 wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
What is that thing? How does that work? What are we going to name that thing? I like to name it prayer

I like to name it coincidence or correlation or causation which invalidates supernatural explanations