Praying Atheist

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

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Re: Praying Atheist

#61  Postby aliihsanasl » Aug 01, 2017 5:19 pm

GrahamH wrote:
aliihsanasl wrote:In my opinion the mechanism working during prayer, meditation or listening religious speech is the usage of a switch in our brain to alienate ourselves from daily problems and responsibilities and switching ourselves into a deep relaxing state of mind. In short its self hypnose with the internet we're learning more and more about our bodies and psychology. What Im wondering is, are these new relaxation methods will replace traditional prayer methods probably not in short term because religions have heaven promise and hell punishment.

What surprises me is an atheist person's practicing worships which have more long term promises. For example a student can pray before an exam and this can calm him right before the exam or right after a close relative's death you can feel very depressed and pray for his/her soul. But my uncle who I know an extreme atheist sacrificing 1 year old lamb when he bough a new car and rubbing its blood to numberplate thinking that this blood will be last this car interfere and wont have accident. He did the same when he bought a new house. This is so ridiculous imo from one side you say there isnt any superior power controlling things around us and then sacrificing an animal to it.


You don't have to believe in god or follow a religion to be superstitious and none of these beliefs are really rational. It doesn't seem that surprising that some people who don't believe in a traditional religion/god might still have superstitions about non-sentient supernatural forces. In that case the sacrifice wouldn't be 'to' a god or a plea heard by a sentient, it could be thought as a magic potion that affects a blind unfeeling universe. Humans are strange and make up all sorts weird nonsense.


More and more people are awakening from that superstitions I believe because otherwise such a thing wouldnt be news right ?

This is from today's newspaper; Zonguldak municipality buys Volswagen Tourag and sacrifices a ram for it and even writes the platenumber of the SUV on the ram ! :roll:

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Re: Praying Atheist

#62  Postby GrahamH » Aug 01, 2017 5:33 pm

Nuts. Google translates that as 'My Lord, please accept our intentions'. That doesn't sound like an atheist. It sound's like someone who believes in a 'Lord' deity.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Praying Atheist

#63  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 06, 2017 11:46 am

GrahamH wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:Consider. If I have a math problem, I work on it for twenty minutes and something im my brain records many things about the problem and that work. My brain has changed physical state. Now if I go off and do something without any occurrent thoughts about the problem, when I run into a matching pattern, that same area of the brain lights up again and a solution presents itself.

This too is prayer.


If you want to point at a process that doesn't involve any noticeable praying, and just call it "prayer", sure.

Unless you're working on the maths problem and you say, "this is just too hard; I don't have a prayer." But then you go away and have your Eureka moment, and you finally work it out. "Oh. I must've had a prayer after all."

Beyond that, we seem to be talking about the prayer of the gaps.


I read SoS as saying not that thinking about maths problem is prayer, but that thinking about something, anything, has physical effects in the brain that can modify how it later performs in finding solutions, and praying might also do that.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that just putting things into words of a prayer might do that. Talking a problem through to yourself aloud might do that. Getting to an answer is complex and not principally conscious. We have to prime ourselves to allow the solution to come, and when it comes it often seems a little bit miraculous. Voice your problems and desires aloud as if to God and it could help you find solutions for yourself that will surprise you.


Exactly. The important point for me is that if we are such beings as this self talk works for us then it's easy to see how religion has become such a thing. I think religion has become a Great Problem. We need to take a deeper look, rather than just discounting everything about it as nonsense. We need to Secularize this Shit.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#64  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 06, 2017 11:48 am

aliihsanasl wrote:In my opinion the mechanism working during prayer, meditation or listening religious speech is the usage of a switch in our brain to alienate ourselves from daily problems and responsibilities and switching ourselves into a deep relaxing state of mind. In short its self hypnose with the internet we're learning more and more about our bodies and psychology. What Im wondering is, are these new relaxation methods will replace traditional prayer methods probably not in short term because religions have heaven promise and hell punishment.

What surprises me is an atheist person's practicing worships which have more long term promises. For example a student can pray before an exam and this can calm him right before the exam or right after a close relative's death you can feel very depressed and pray for his/her soul. But my uncle who I know an extreme atheist sacrificing 1 year old lamb when he bough a new car and rubbing its blood to numberplate thinking that this blood will be last this car interfere and wont have accident. He did the same when he bought a new house. This is so ridiculous imo from one side you say there isnt any superior power controlling things around us and then sacrificing an animal to it.


Do you see any difference between praying to do well on a test and rubbing murdered lamb blood on your car?
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Re: Praying Atheist

#65  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 06, 2017 12:14 pm

Shagz wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
So my rule number one is: no getting silly about this shit.

I agree. However, no offense, but it seems to me that you're getting silly about shit and violating your own rule. First you try to paint yourself as a hardcore rationalist; then you confess to having some silly notions about the universe.

Silly notion #1: Because the Earth happens to be in the thermal zone where the sort of life that you expect to find on Earth can exist, it's special.

Er.. no shit. Is Venus less special then? How come you didn't marvel at how special Jupiter is? I think we both know the answer to that: By singling out the Earth, you're implying that the Earth and the life here has some kind of special place in the universe. Has it ever occurred to you that you, a life form from Earth, might be biased when you assume that the Earth and its life are special somehow?

Silly notion #2: We're an organism that resonates with synchronicity.

I don't think we can rationally call humanity an "organism," when we're clearly a collection of organisms. Maybe someone could make the argument that we're similar to a superorganism like a bee hive, but maybe that's pushing it. On top of that, you throw in "resonates with synchronicity," whatever that means. By synchronicity, do you mean the random occurrences that human beings, for one reason or another, attach significance to? In a universe with nonstop random occurrences, isn't it expected that some of them would happen to appear to be related to each other in some meaningful way to us? Why do you keep going on about synchronicity, anyway? Even though you took care to make it clear that you aren't a theist, I get the impression that you think there's something supernatural about it, and that you hold some kind of reverence for it, and that this notion of synchronicity, for you, has replaced the notion of god as the cause of the universe. Or something. Otherwise, why would you keep bringing it up? How come you aren't going on about some other aspect of the universe? Why is synchronicity in particular noteworthy?

Frankly, I suspect that you, sir, hold quite a lot of silly notions that some here would call "woo". I suspect that you aren't quite as hard as you think you are. Therefore, it doesn't seem that surprising to me that you take up praying from time-to-time. Don't get me wrong -- it's interesting, but I would be more surprised if someone more hardcore confessed to praying.


Silly notion #1: Because the Earth happens to be in the thermal zone where the sort of life that you expect to find on Earth can exist, it's special.

Er.. no shit. Is Venus less special then? How come you didn't marvel at how special Jupiter is? I think we both know the answer to that: By singling out the Earth, you're implying that the Earth and the life here has some kind of special place in the universe. Has it ever occurred to you that you, a life form from Earth, might be biased when you assume that the Earth and its life are special somehow?



I think carbon chemistry on Earth is special. Kind of subjective though. I very much doubt that the kinds of things that evolve on Venus will be discussing how special things are there. So bias is kind of built in don't you think? Now I think certain things called Groups are special. Rocks on Venus do not think so, I think. Non-groups, or random sets of permutations are not so special.

Carbon chemistry is kind of like this. In this temperature zone a level of complexity is attainable and I do not think it can be so in any other thermal band. On Jupiter we have that red spot though. Maybe stars and jupiter have, at another scale, something as interesting as carbon chemistry on Earth. Can you make a case for that?

So I mean a couple of things here.

1. In this goldilocks we have a kind of thing occurring that can sit around and wax on about 'special'. Not so on Jupiter and Venus. I think. Maybe. You could make a case here where I'm wrong.

2. Complexity in the given physics of our universe seems to explode from around 0-50 degrees. The math gets way interesting in the zone. We can do more than be subjective about this. We can count the number of compounds formed chemically in different temperature zones. Kind of like how we measure different kinds of infinity.

Silly notion #2: We're an organism that resonates with synchronicity.


Let me explain. You have a thing called a brain. When some pattern occurs this brain makes a sketchy record of it. This involves a complex process of ST, UST memory, sleep cycles, and LT plasticity. You have a stable structure in the goldi-zone that lasts about 100 years. Those sketches stick around. If your stable structure takes in a similar, isomorphic pattern, there is a resonance with the old pattern. You are the kind of creature that can 're-member' what you 'did' while you are 'doing'. (Note, If you are on Jupiter or Venus this won't work so good)

So. We 'resonate' in complex ways 'in the zone'.

I think I did the above with pure reasoning. Never sure of myself about that. But go ahead and try to respond in the same way be careful to leave out ideas like bias and other silly notions that trivially render reason trivial.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#66  Postby aliihsanasl » Aug 06, 2017 2:44 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
aliihsanasl wrote:In my opinion the mechanism working during prayer, meditation or listening religious speech is the usage of a switch in our brain to alienate ourselves from daily problems and responsibilities and switching ourselves into a deep relaxing state of mind. In short its self hypnose with the internet we're learning more and more about our bodies and psychology. What Im wondering is, are these new relaxation methods will replace traditional prayer methods probably not in short term because religions have heaven promise and hell punishment.

What surprises me is an atheist person's practicing worships which have more long term promises. For example a student can pray before an exam and this can calm him right before the exam or right after a close relative's death you can feel very depressed and pray for his/her soul. But my uncle who I know an extreme atheist sacrificing 1 year old lamb when he bough a new car and rubbing its blood to numberplate thinking that this blood will be last this car interfere and wont have accident. He did the same when he bought a new house. This is so ridiculous imo from one side you say there isnt any superior power controlling things around us and then sacrificing an animal to it.


Do you see any difference between praying to do well on a test and rubbing murdered lamb blood on your car?


No there is no difference from my perspective, both serving to cheat self and to feel better.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#67  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 09, 2017 12:15 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
aliihsanasl wrote:In my opinion the mechanism working during prayer, meditation or listening religious speech is the usage of a switch in our brain to alienate ourselves from daily problems and responsibilities and switching ourselves into a deep relaxing state of mind. In short its self hypnose with the internet we're learning more and more about our bodies and psychology. What Im wondering is, are these new relaxation methods will replace traditional prayer methods probably not in short term because religions have heaven promise and hell punishment.

What surprises me is an atheist person's practicing worships which have more long term promises. For example a student can pray before an exam and this can calm him right before the exam or right after a close relative's death you can feel very depressed and pray for his/her soul. But my uncle who I know an extreme atheist sacrificing 1 year old lamb when he bough a new car and rubbing its blood to numberplate thinking that this blood will be last this car interfere and wont have accident. He did the same when he bought a new house. This is so ridiculous imo from one side you say there isnt any superior power controlling things around us and then sacrificing an animal to it.


Do you see any difference between praying to do well on a test and rubbing murdered lamb blood on your car?


No there is no difference from my perspective, both serving to cheat self and to feel better.


So Wrong. In the first case there is a perfectly simple and trusty mechanism for getting a result and in the second there is nothing other than bat-shit-crazy( but see below. It could still work!). If I 'do something' with my body and mind I will surely have an effect on my body and mind. If I smack myself upside the head I will feel the pain. If I smack a poor little lamb on the head then no. Not going to feel that pain.

Now if I have a math problem and I tell myself that the symbols are too weird and I can never understand this thing then likely I will have set up a course of events where I will fail. If instead, I do some little ritual, say a prayer for a solution, or even kill a lamb and rub his blood on the problem, I will have made a change in my head. Yes. I 'feel' better. and in so feeling better I have opened my mind to my finding the solution.

Now my clear understanding of mechanism and my hardened atheism allows me to choose my rituals a little more sanely and hence save a lot of lambs.

Consider your way. You not only rightly believe the lamb should be saved but in addition you wrongly believe that you can have no impact on your own mind and well-being which is as crazy as killing the lamb. If you come at an xtian from that POV then he will surely counter you with a dozen cases where prayer did help. Because he agrees with you that the only way for prayer to work is if spooks are true, you have lost the chance to change his thinking toward sanity. As an atheist you have the same belief in spooks as he does.

Read that a few times and see if you get the little twist in that paragraph.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#68  Postby John Platko » Aug 10, 2017 8:00 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:Consider. If I have a math problem, I work on it for twenty minutes and something im my brain records many things about the problem and that work. My brain has changed physical state. Now if I go off and do something without any occurrent thoughts about the problem, when I run into a matching pattern, that same area of the brain lights up again and a solution presents itself.

This too is prayer.


If you want to point at a process that doesn't involve any noticeable praying, and just call it "prayer", sure.

Unless you're working on the maths problem and you say, "this is just too hard; I don't have a prayer." But then you go away and have your Eureka moment, and you finally work it out. "Oh. I must've had a prayer after all."

Beyond that, we seem to be talking about the prayer of the gaps.


I read SoS as saying not that thinking about maths problem is prayer, but that thinking about something, anything, has physical effects in the brain that can modify how it later performs in finding solutions, and praying might also do that.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that just putting things into words of a prayer might do that. Talking a problem through to yourself aloud might do that. Getting to an answer is complex and not principally conscious. We have to prime ourselves to allow the solution to come, and when it comes it often seems a little bit miraculous. Voice your problems and desires aloud as if to God and it could help you find solutions for yourself that will surprise you.


Exactly. The important point for me is that if we are such beings as this self talk works for us then it's easy to see how religion has become such a thing. I think religion has become a Great Problem. We need to take a deeper look, rather than just discounting everything about it as nonsense. We need to Secularize this Shit.


Much of the "shit" is being secularized. Many people engage in mindfulness meditation, CBT self talk, etc. without thinking they are borrowing ideas that religions have evolved. Sadly, most can't connect the dots of how their practice relates to religious practice and both sides seem to have strong biases which make it hard for them to see the linkage between the different forms of essentially the same human activity. In fact, when I brought up the linkage between prayer and CBT self talk some time ago it was an idea that seemed to cause many members to :puke:.

Sadly, I think your idea is a bit too advanced for most in 2017.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#69  Postby Fallible » Aug 11, 2017 8:30 am

The vomiting was because it was obvious that you have no clear idea what you're talking about, and as a result, your 'idea' so resembled trolling that it made no practical difference whether it was or not. You are continuing in the same vein here. For example, the notion you hold that sceptics don't realise where mindfulness comes from. Every time I introduce it to someone, I preface by saying it is a technique which originated in eastern religion. Your 'idea' rests upon your bizarre, idiosyncratic definitions of prayer and God. By now we know that you don't mean what pretty much anyone else means when they say 'god', but this disconnect results in immediate misunderstandings which persist through your windy, condescending 'explanations', as though it is everyone else who has the problem.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#70  Postby GrahamH » Aug 11, 2017 8:49 am

This may be relevant:

Say a man named John is upset about recently being dumped. By simply reflecting on his feelings in the third person ("Why is John upset?"), John is less emotionally reactive than when he addresses himself in the first person ("Why am I upset?").
"Essentially, we think referring to yourself in the third person leads people to think about themselves more similar to how they think about others, and you can see evidence for this in the brain," said Jason Moser, MSU associate professor of psychology. "That helps people gain a tiny bit of psychological distance from their experiences, which can often be useful for regulating emotions."
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 102906.htm


Talking 'to God' might be similar in that it frames your own situation in a third-person perspective of an ultra-capable unflappable father figure.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#71  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 11, 2017 10:30 am

John Platko wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:

If you want to point at a process that doesn't involve any noticeable praying, and just call it "prayer", sure.

Unless you're working on the maths problem and you say, "this is just too hard; I don't have a prayer." But then you go away and have your Eureka moment, and you finally work it out. "Oh. I must've had a prayer after all."

Beyond that, we seem to be talking about the prayer of the gaps.


I read SoS as saying not that thinking about maths problem is prayer, but that thinking about something, anything, has physical effects in the brain that can modify how it later performs in finding solutions, and praying might also do that.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that just putting things into words of a prayer might do that. Talking a problem through to yourself aloud might do that. Getting to an answer is complex and not principally conscious. We have to prime ourselves to allow the solution to come, and when it comes it often seems a little bit miraculous. Voice your problems and desires aloud as if to God and it could help you find solutions for yourself that will surprise you.


Exactly. The important point for me is that if we are such beings as this self talk works for us then it's easy to see how religion has become such a thing. I think religion has become a Great Problem. We need to take a deeper look, rather than just discounting everything about it as nonsense. We need to Secularize this Shit.


Much of the "shit" is being secularized. Many people engage in mindfulness meditation, CBT self talk, etc. without thinking they are borrowing ideas that religions have evolved. Sadly, most can't connect the dots of how their practice relates to religious practice and both sides seem to have strong biases which make it hard for them to see the linkage between the different forms of essentially the same human activity. In fact, when I brought up the linkage between prayer and CBT self talk some time ago it was an idea that seemed to cause many members to :puke:.

Sadly, I think your idea is a bit too advanced for most in 2017.


One can only try. It's so damned important that we get this right now that I have trouble shutting up about it.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#72  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 11, 2017 10:41 am

Fallible wrote:The vomiting was because it was obvious that you have no clear idea what you're talking about, and as a result, your 'idea' so resembled trolling that it made no practical difference whether it was or not. You are continuing in the same vein here. For example, the notion you hold that sceptics don't realise where mindfulness comes from. Every time I introduce it to someone, I preface by saying it is a technique which originated in eastern religion. Your 'idea' rests upon your bizarre, idiosyncratic definitions of prayer and God. By now we know that you don't mean what pretty much anyone else means when they say 'god', but this disconnect results in immediate misunderstandings which persist through your windy, condescending 'explanations', as though it is everyone else who has the problem.


A point that is not being made by your treatment is in what way religions and their practice accidentally yield the same results. What are the mechanics here?

Consider the guy who doesn't think too much and isn't all that well educated. He has a meltdown in his life and gets picked up by a bleaver (kind of like beavers but less clever). He prays and suddenly his life lights up and changes. His conclusion is man-god-thingy did this for him. You can't possibly deny that this is happening to billions of humans?

So we have this pivotal point. We do a certain kind of thing with our minds, an action much like lifting your arm. Then a particular type of result ensues. It's invariant on what the person believes in. It's the 'kind of' action taken that gives the result.

What is that thing? How does that work? What are we going to name that thing?

I like to name it 'prayer'. That seems to cover the largest set of belief systems. I would like it to cover atheism as well as belief systems and I have reason for that. Like many words of old I want to claim it for science and physicalism. Steal it back.

At least until we can come up with a good greek or latin name for it.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#73  Postby Fallible » Aug 11, 2017 11:17 am

What?
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Re: Praying Atheist

#74  Postby GrahamH » Aug 11, 2017 11:21 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
A point that is not being made by your treatment is in what way religions and their practice accidentally yield the same results. What are the mechanics here?


Surely it is not accidental, it's human psychology common to humans of all creeds and eras. Whatever the mechanics they are quite possibly the same whether the participant thinks they are speaking to God or not.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Praying Atheist

#75  Postby John Platko » Aug 11, 2017 5:50 pm

GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
A point that is not being made by your treatment is in what way religions and their practice accidentally yield the same results. What are the mechanics here?


Surely it is not accidental, it's human psychology common to humans of all creeds and eras. Whatever the mechanics they are quite possibly the same whether the participant thinks they are speaking to God or not.


Lately I've been learning bit about the Tulpamancy community. They actively create the :scratch: entities that they interact with, usually not associating these thought forms with God. They tend to see these thought forms as being separate beings from themselves - which I think would be difficult to understand if you haven't experienced such a thing. To me, this too seems to be a variant of the same kind of psychological process.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#76  Postby John Platko » Aug 11, 2017 6:07 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
John Platko wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
GrahamH wrote:

I read SoS as saying not that thinking about maths problem is prayer, but that thinking about something, anything, has physical effects in the brain that can modify how it later performs in finding solutions, and praying might also do that.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that just putting things into words of a prayer might do that. Talking a problem through to yourself aloud might do that. Getting to an answer is complex and not principally conscious. We have to prime ourselves to allow the solution to come, and when it comes it often seems a little bit miraculous. Voice your problems and desires aloud as if to God and it could help you find solutions for yourself that will surprise you.


Exactly. The important point for me is that if we are such beings as this self talk works for us then it's easy to see how religion has become such a thing. I think religion has become a Great Problem. We need to take a deeper look, rather than just discounting everything about it as nonsense. We need to Secularize this Shit.


Much of the "shit" is being secularized. Many people engage in mindfulness meditation, CBT self talk, etc. without thinking they are borrowing ideas that religions have evolved. Sadly, most can't connect the dots of how their practice relates to religious practice and both sides seem to have strong biases which make it hard for them to see the linkage between the different forms of essentially the same human activity. In fact, when I brought up the linkage between prayer and CBT self talk some time ago it was an idea that seemed to cause many members to :puke:.

Sadly, I think your idea is a bit too advanced for most in 2017.


One can only try. It's so damned important that we get this right now that I have trouble shutting up about it.


I applaud your enthusiasm for the subject. And I certainly think it's helpful to understand this. When I think about the religious figures from the Bible (JC etc.), and being Catholic, saints of all flavors, that I learned about when I was young, it changes the way I interpret those stories now that I'm aware that these psychological processes were driving the experiences of those people. No supernatural sauce needed. Just normal, albeit sometimes extreme, human psychological processes at work and the dynamics of how humans interpret and deal with such things.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#77  Postby surreptitious57 » Aug 13, 2017 11:54 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
What is that thing? How does that work? What are we going to name that thing? I like to name it prayer

I like to name it coincidence or correlation or causation which invalidates supernatural explanations
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Re: Praying Atheist

#78  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 13, 2017 1:08 pm

GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
A point that is not being made by your treatment is in what way religions and their practice accidentally yield the same results. What are the mechanics here?


Surely it is not accidental, it's human psychology common to humans of all creeds and eras. Whatever the mechanics they are quite possibly the same whether the participant thinks they are speaking to God or not.

Yup. That is the point. Though many people are mislead because they can't imagine a mechanism, hence they are off believing in very dangerous things.

I have a very frequent discussion in AA groups. The 'what am I praying to if I'm an atheist discussion'. I try to explain that it doesn't matter and in fact it works best when you have no clue what you are praying 'too'. It is the act not the target that gets the result.

In most religions the god-idea is sufficiently obscure and mysterious that it has the same effect. My theory is that people who have a well defined sense of a god and they try and talk to it like they would a person, are not praying well at all.
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Re: Praying Atheist

#79  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 13, 2017 1:14 pm

John Platko wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
John Platko wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:

Exactly. The important point for me is that if we are such beings as this self talk works for us then it's easy to see how religion has become such a thing. I think religion has become a Great Problem. We need to take a deeper look, rather than just discounting everything about it as nonsense. We need to Secularize this Shit.


Much of the "shit" is being secularized. Many people engage in mindfulness meditation, CBT self talk, etc. without thinking they are borrowing ideas that religions have evolved. Sadly, most can't connect the dots of how their practice relates to religious practice and both sides seem to have strong biases which make it hard for them to see the linkage between the different forms of essentially the same human activity. In fact, when I brought up the linkage between prayer and CBT self talk some time ago it was an idea that seemed to cause many members to :puke:.

Sadly, I think your idea is a bit too advanced for most in 2017.


One can only try. It's so damned important that we get this right now that I have trouble shutting up about it.


I applaud your enthusiasm for the subject. And I certainly think it's helpful to understand this. When I think about the religious figures from the Bible (JC etc.), and being Catholic, saints of all flavors, that I learned about when I was young, it changes the way I interpret those stories now that I'm aware that these psychological processes were driving the experiences of those people. No supernatural sauce needed. Just normal, albeit sometimes extreme, human psychological processes at work and the dynamics of how humans interpret and deal with such things.


So the message is 'no sauce needed'. It takes a long time to get all this across to a believer. I must say that I have actually won a few believers and agnostics over on all this. Not by denying they have a religious experience but by carefully getting them to imagine the naturalist psychology of the mechanism.

BTW. That avatar pic you have is the same cat I used to have back in the Sixties! He would only come out when we partied though. :scratch:
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Re: Praying Atheist

#80  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 13, 2017 1:15 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
What is that thing? How does that work? What are we going to name that thing? I like to name it prayer

I like to name it coincidence or correlation or causation which invalidates supernatural explanations

Yes. And coincidence is the low hanging fruit in the universe.
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