Reality and the mind

Everyone perceives everything in their mind

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Reality and the mind

#1  Postby NoemaNovel » Jan 22, 2020 12:08 pm

Have you ever experienced something you couldn’t explain, or had a dream that disturbed you because it felt so real? Have you ever tried to explain this to anyone only to be told that you have “an over-active imagination”?

Since everyone perceives everything in their mind, “reality” can only ever be what our minds make it, so that what seems real to us is real. Do you agree that if more people accepted this, they might be kinder and more tolerant to one another?

Are you willing to help make this happen by sharing your own experiences of your reality with others who will not judge or criticise it but will accept it on its own terms?
NoemaNovel
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Dael Akkerman
Posts: 1

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Reality and the mind

#2  Postby Hermit » Jan 22, 2020 12:44 pm

NoemaNovel wrote:what seems real to us is real.

Sorry for raining on your maiden post, but I have not heard anyone uttering such unmitigated nonsense since hippies roamed about freely in the wild.

ETA: Oh. I see you're here to spruik a book you wrote.

Go away.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 3589
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#3  Postby zulumoose » Jan 22, 2020 1:13 pm

I think he has a point.

What you perceive as real, even if only in a dream you realized afterwards was absurd, is still a part of your life experience.
Every experience shapes your understanding of reality.

I doubt if any of us can say with certainty that if our collection of life experiences had been radically different, we would not be influenced to the extent of having an opposite viewpoint on some important issues.

Humans are largely a collection of accumulated biases to begin with, skeptics may be the top of the pile in terms of caring about reality, but the pile has always been a dung heap!
User avatar
zulumoose
 
Posts: 3618

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#4  Postby Thommo » Jan 22, 2020 1:28 pm

NoemaNovel wrote:Since everyone perceives everything in their mind, “reality” can only ever be what our minds make it, so that what seems real to us is real. Do you agree that if more people accepted this, they might be kinder and more tolerant to one another?


Not really, no.

Confusing what we believe with what we know and what we believe about reality with what is actually real is unlikely to help anything. Reality is the bit that's (alleged to be) there even if I am asleep. If you believe in reality you adopt realism. If you do not believe in reality you are not a realist, perhaps rather some sort of mentalist. And if history has one lesson it's that people accepting beliefs as unassailable truths is not a road away from conflict.

If we want people to be kind we need to teach them to be kind, and to do kind things ourselves. If we want to teach tolerance and understanding then we should do that directly, by encouraging people, especially young people, to learn about different cultures, learn foreign languages, interact with different people. Empathise, sympathise, learn to be compassionate. Not dangle the prospect of utopia like a carrot for adopting a certain set of untestable articles of faith, I suspect.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 26878

Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#5  Postby Hermit » Jan 22, 2020 1:33 pm

zulumoose wrote:I think he has a point.

What you perceive as real, even if only in a dream you realized afterwards was absurd, is still a part of your life experience.
Every experience shapes your understanding of reality.

If that were his point, he expressed it really, really badly. For real, man.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 3589
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#6  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 22, 2020 1:37 pm

NoemaNovel wrote:
Since everyone perceives everything in their mind, “reality” can only ever be what our minds make it, so that what seems real to us is real.

I think you can word this more clearly. Everyone doesn't perceive everything in their mind, there is of course much that we don't perceive, in our minds or otherwise. Unless your view is solipsistic, that nothing outside your mind exists, but I'm guessing that isn't the case.

If by "reality", you mean our perception of reality, then yes, your perception of reality will of course be the only reality you perceive. You have plenty of reason to think there is reality beyond your perception, though, and that perception is flawed. So if there's a will to perceive what's beyond the construct in your mind, then you need a method, and we have methods for that.

For sure, what seems real to us is real in the sense that you feeling something about a dream you had, or a feeling when you experienced something that you can't explain, is of course real. The only way they wouldn't be is if you were lying about them. But that does not mean your feelings about things is the reality beyond your perception.

Do you agree that if more people accepted this, they might be kinder and more tolerant to one another?

No, I'd say us insisting that our particular mind's view is what's real, which implies that someone else's is not, can lead to unkindness.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 13884
Age: 40
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#7  Postby aufbahrung » Jan 22, 2020 2:12 pm

The assumption that the universal unconciousness as Jung described it will conflate with the ideals of the nobel savage, as some French bloke would have it....probably a bad outcome. You can see I'm already out of my death, but to push the idea further down the track how many chapters are in the book?
In Paris nothing matters.
User avatar
aufbahrung
 
Name: Your Real Name
Posts: 1110

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Reality and the mind

#8  Postby TopCat » Jan 22, 2020 2:16 pm

NoemaNovel wrote:

1. Since everyone perceives everything in their mind,
2.“reality” can only ever be what our minds make it,
3. so that what seems real to us is real.


Conclusion 2 does not follow from premise 1, for a start. By putting "reality" in quotes you obviously realise that perceived reality isn't the same as actual reality. You could get away with rewriting 2 as:

2. Perceived reality can only ever be what our minds make it

... but then 3 doesn't follow from 2, because you haven't defined any connection between perception and objective reality.

It's all a bit rubbish. You might find a more woo-tolerant community at a New Age forum.
TopCat
 
Posts: 765
Age: 57
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#9  Postby GrahamH » Jan 22, 2020 3:04 pm

Ah. New age fantasy genre. Spiritual Literature & Fiction

'This is a story about some things that happened to me about twelve thousand years ago.' With these words, the narrator begins her account of events set at the crucial point in human evolution, when hunter-gathering began to be abandoned as way of life just as the first signs of organized religion emerged. Who or what the narrator is, and how she can speak to us today of events in our distant past, become clear as she describes her existence amongst the sophisticated people of the Mesolithic era - people identical to ourselves but with very different views of the world and humanity's place in it - and how they came to adopt a strategy for survival that would change both forever. Noema is a story about ingenuity in adversity, the subjectivity of consciousness and the sense of self. It is also about perception: of life and death, of time, of the nature of reality, and ultimately of a God for whom love and worship may not be enough.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Noema-Dael-Akk ... skept01-21


[/topic]
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20392

Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#10  Postby Fallible » Jan 22, 2020 4:10 pm

Now this is a story all about how my life got flipped, turned upside down.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 50792
Age: 47
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#11  Postby laklak » Jan 22, 2020 5:45 pm

Get it on Kindle Unlimited and I'll give it a read.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 20239
Age: 66
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#12  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 22, 2020 5:56 pm

Hermit wrote:
NoemaNovel wrote:what seems real to us is real.

Sorry for raining on your maiden post, but I have not heard anyone uttering such unmitigated nonsense since hippies roamed about freely in the wild.



I don't think it's quite as bad as you're making out, just a little unplumbed and poorly worded.

Hallucinations, delusions, even god experiences... they are best described, I think, by our brains doing something a-typical and our minds failing to perceive the distinction between something internally generated and something originating in the external world.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#13  Postby Hermit » Jan 23, 2020 8:56 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Hermit wrote:
NoemaNovel wrote:what seems real to us is real.

Sorry for raining on your maiden post, but I have not heard anyone uttering such unmitigated nonsense since hippies roamed about freely in the wild.



I don't think it's quite as bad as you're making out, just a little unplumbed and poorly worded.

Hallucinations, delusions, even god experiences... they are best described, I think, by our brains doing something a-typical and our minds failing to perceive the distinction between something internally generated and something originating in the external world.

Again, that's not what NoemaNovel is saying. Not only does he claim in unambiguous fashion that "what seems real to us is real", but he asks us to "not judge or criticise it but will accept it on its own terms". No, I will not oblige. I never have and I never will. People have attempted to justify their belief in Gaia, homoeopathy, fasting to purge the poisons in their bodies, guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh of the 93 Rolls Royces and whatnot with the words: "It may not be real for you, but it's real to me" too often. It was the pre-WWW version of [/thread].

What next? Am I expected to refrain from judging and criticising people's belief in Anon or that "the greenies" are responsible for bushfires because it seems real to them?
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 3589
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#14  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 24, 2020 4:51 am

But for example, it is valid:

what seems real to us is real (to us)

Thus hallucinations, delusions, mystical nonsense... what this means is that people aren't lying: they genuinely believe that the dysfunctions of their brains represent something real in the world.

To me, this is actually a topic worthy of discussing and showing why this presents a problem, and to make suggestions about how we might be able to overcome it.

If X is real to someone and you just tell them they're an idiot and to go away, they may go away but they still continue to believe X is real. Instead, if you can show them why the seeming real is not logically linked to the actually real, then you may offer them some way of navigating the quagmire they're in.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#15  Postby GrahamH » Jan 24, 2020 10:39 am

Spearthrower wrote:But for example, it is valid:

what seems real to us is real (to us)

Thus hallucinations, delusions, mystical nonsense... what this means is that people aren't lying: they genuinely believe that the dysfunctions of their brains represent something real in the world.


And in that sentence you have just define "unreal". If a perception is "dysfunctions of their brains" then it is does not "represent something real in the world".

I take it that NoemaNovel would disagree that what you label "delusions" and "dysfunctions of their brains" are nothing of the sort. The claim seems to be that the perceptions represent something objectively real (although nt necessarily "in the world")

Your opener reduces to :

What seems real to us seems real (to us) which isn't worth a dime.

If we took all perceptions as reality we wouldn't have a concept for real/ unreal.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20392

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Reality and the mind

#16  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 24, 2020 10:57 am

Now try reading what I wrote Graham. This is becoming a disturbing pattern.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#17  Postby GrahamH » Jan 24, 2020 11:05 am

Spearthrower wrote:Now try reading what I wrote Graham. This is becoming a disturbing pattern.

I read what you wrote and pointed out some specific problems with it. If you read what I wrote and have some points to make in reply go ahead but don't post vacuous "you didn't understand my brilliant post" non-replies. :naughty:
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20392

Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#18  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 24, 2020 11:12 am

don't post vacuous "you didn't understand my brilliant post" non-replies.


And a strawman on top.

Yep, there's something very suspect going on here.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#19  Postby Hermit » Jan 24, 2020 1:04 pm

Spearthrower wrote:If X is real to someone and you just tell them they're an idiot and to go away, they may go away but they still continue to believe X is real. Instead, if you can show them why the seeming real is not logically linked to the actually real, then you may offer them some way of navigating the quagmire they're in.

NoemaNovel does not ask us to not condemn people whose beliefs are nonsensical as idiots. He asks us to "not judge or criticise it* but will accept it* on its own terms".

I will not tell them they are idiots, but nothing will make me agree to not judge or criticise it*, nor I will accept it* on its own terms. Ever. Manifestly, nor do you. JayJay, for example, would be ever so thankful if any of us did, and his thread on creationism would have died long before you had contributed your 886 contributions to its 5060 posts.


*"It" standing for any belief, regardless of how nonsensical it is.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 3589
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: Reality and the mind

#20  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 24, 2020 2:04 pm

You're also not following clearly written English.

I did not say 'Don't criticize it' as you've now claimed twice - quite the contrary, I said it would be helpful to actually do so.

What you did was say:

Sorry for raining on your maiden post, but I have not heard anyone uttering such unmitigated nonsense since hippies roamed about freely in the wild.

ETA: Oh. I see you're here to spruik a book you wrote.

Go away.


All this does is say that you think it's nonsense and tells him to go away.

Thus, I replied:

If X is real to someone and you just tell them they're an idiot and to go away, they may go away but they still continue to believe X is real. Instead, if you can show them why the seeming real is not logically linked to the actually real, then you may offer them some way of navigating the quagmire they're in.


You may recall a recent post that was, in essence, quite similar:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/psych ... 56084.html

The guy is suffering from OCD and believes that he is being told things by a voice in his mind prior to them actually happening. Telling him it's nonsense isn't going to help him - who's he likely to believe? Someone he doesn't know, or his first-hand experience? Instead, if you can reason with the OP, then you might actually be able to help him out... you know, like I wrote to you:

Instead, if you can show them why the seeming real is not logically linked to the actually real, then you may offer them some way of navigating the quagmire they're in.


Now, it might turn out that this OP is not interested in being helped, and is instead trying to foist off some artfully crafted snake-oil. However, you're still going to have engaged his idea and thereby force him to come back with something a little more substantive.

Finally, there's no comparison at all with JJ's thread. I didn't just tell him 'that's nonsense, go away'. I spent years talking to the guy long before he started this thread, and provided him with reams of material evidence that contradicts his claims. Even now, after more than a decade, I don't just tell him to go away; I take his claims as they're presented and criticize those claims. I never even momentarily suggested you shouldn't criticize, rather, I specifically said you should do so substantively.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Next

Return to Nontheism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest