Richard Dawkins KPFA Radio event cancelled

Matthew Shute · **#21** by **Matthew Shute** » Aug 12, 2017 10:39 am

Wortfish wrote:
NamelessFaceless wrote:Dawkins discusses the issue on Fox News:

Strange. Dawkins would probably agree that Jews are a "race", even though the only thing that connects them is their religious heritage, but does not think Muslims are a "people".

Cool story.

: Not A Race.png (26.41 KiB) Viewed 1722 times

https://twitter.com/richarddawkins/stat ... 72?lang=en

Wortfish · **#22** by **Wortfish** » Aug 12, 2017 11:29 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
NamelessFaceless wrote:Dawkins discusses the issue on Fox News:

Strange. Dawkins would probably agree that Jews are a "race", even though the only thing that connects them is their religious heritage, but does not think Muslims are a "people".

Cool story.

OK. I stand corrected. :oops:

But there are many people who do claim that Jews are a race and that anti-semitism is racism.

Rachel Bronwyn · **#23** by **Rachel Bronwyn** » Aug 12, 2017 11:49 am

The fact race isn't real doesn't mean racism isn't.

Matthew Shute · **#24** by **Matthew Shute** » Aug 12, 2017 12:06 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
NamelessFaceless wrote:Dawkins discusses the issue on Fox News:

Strange. Dawkins would probably agree that Jews are a "race", even though the only thing that connects them is their religious heritage, but does not think Muslims are a "people".

Cool story.

OK. I stand corrected. But there are many people who do claim that Jews are a race and that anti-semitism is racism.

When anti-semites are called racists, I think it's more to do with anti-semites themselves regarding Jews as a race. Just being known as an anti-semite is damning enough. Some Jews think in terms of a race, too - sometimes it's wrapped up in religious delusions. Others just talk in terms of a cultural heritage. It's not uncommon to bump into cultural Jews who're completely atheistic (Sam Harris, Steven Weinberg, many others).

It should be obvious that if you can convert into and out of something, at any time, then it's not a race in any biological sense.

Wortfish · **#25** by **Wortfish** » Aug 12, 2017 3:29 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:
It should be obvious that if you can convert into and out of something, at any time, then it's not a race in any biological sense.

Agreed. Although there are some Jewish geneticists (like Doron Behar) who like to claim that Jews are the direct descendants of the ancient Hebrews. But I suspect this is more to support the Zionist claim to Palestine than anything else. However, "race" need not refer to biology. It can equally refer to a group with a shared sense of values, culture, identity or history.

Thomas Eshuis · **#26** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Aug 12, 2017 3:34 pm

Claiming Jews to be a race also excludes them from other semitic people, especially the Arabs. Which leads to the use of anti-semitism as a misnomer.

Wortfish · **#27** by **Wortfish** » Aug 12, 2017 3:40 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Claiming Jews to be a race also excludes them from other semitic people, especially the Arabs. Which leads to the use of anti-semitism as a misnomer.

Semites are speakers of a Semitic language, not members of a race. Most Jews don't speak a Semitic language. I would concede that "race" has generally referred to a group with a distinctive ancestry, but it is not properly defined.

Thomas Eshuis · **#28** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Aug 12, 2017 3:41 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Claiming Jews to be a race also excludes them from other semitic people, especially the Arabs. Which leads to the use of anti-semitism as a misnomer.

Semites are speakers of a Semitic language, not members of a race.

Never said they were, you'll note I used people rather than race.

Wortfish wrote: Most Jews don't speak a Semitic language. I would concede that "race" has generally referred to a group with a distinctive ancestry, but it is not properly defined.

The point is that both Arabs and Jews are Semitic people, at least linguistically and thus to use anti-semitism to refer exclusively to intolerance of Jews is a misnomer.

Wortfish · **#29** by **Wortfish** » Aug 13, 2017 11:37 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The point is that both Arabs and Jews are Semitic people, at least linguistically and thus to use anti-semitism to refer exclusively to intolerance of Jews is a misnomer.

As I say, most Jews don't speak Hebrew...they speak Yiddish, English, Russian, Ladino, Persian...and Dutch. Also, there is some doubt about whether modern Hebrew is a Semitic language when much of its syntax, vocabulary and grammar come from European languages.

Thomas Eshuis · **#30** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Aug 13, 2017 11:41 am

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The point is that both Arabs and Jews are Semitic people, at least linguistically and thus to use anti-semitism to refer exclusively to intolerance of Jews is a misnomer.

As I say, most Jews don't speak Hebrew...they speak Yiddish, English, Russian, Ladino, Persian...and Dutch.

They come from the semitic culture however, which is the point.

Wortfish wrote: Also, there is some doubt about whether modern Hebrew is a Semitic language when much of its syntax, vocabulary and grammar come from European languages.

I never mentioned modern Hebrew to be a Semitic language in the first place.

felltoearth · **#31** by **felltoearth** » Aug 13, 2017 3:35 pm

Wortfish wrote:
felltoearth wrote:ISIS isn't evil. Saudi and Iranian torture and beheading isn't evil?
A highly appropriate term in my books.

At least in Saudi Arabia and Iran the execution of unborn children is illegal. Why is that AI and other "human rights groups" have no complaints about millions of foetuses "aborted" in the West, some in development for over 20 weeks?

It tells you everything you need to know about abortion laws.
There are abortion threads for this argument. And it's a shitty argument.

Rachel Bronwyn · **#32** by **Rachel Bronwyn** » Aug 13, 2017 6:30 pm

Human rights =/= rights for all human tissue

Wortfish · **#33** by **Wortfish** » Aug 15, 2017 11:42 am

felltoearth wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
felltoearth wrote:ISIS isn't evil. Saudi and Iranian torture and beheading isn't evil?
A highly appropriate term in my books.

At least in Saudi Arabia and Iran the execution of unborn children is illegal. Why is that AI and other "human rights groups" have no complaints about millions of foetuses "aborted" in the West, some in development for over 20 weeks?

It tells you everything you need to know about abortion laws.
There are abortion threads for this argument. And it's a shitty argument.

OK. But why is Dawkins so opposed to the Iranian state when:

1. It allows the teaching of evolution in class, unlike Saudi Arabia and now Turkey.
2. 60% of university graduates are women.
3. Women vote, hold public office, work, own property and drive cars.
4. Science is heavily supported by the staten and the country has a high publication rate.

felltoearth · **#34** by **felltoearth** » Aug 15, 2017 7:57 pm

Is he opposed to the Iranian State for those reasons?
I thought it was for the torture and killing of dissidents and infidels.

felltoearth · **#35** by **felltoearth** » Aug 15, 2017 8:39 pm

Actually I can't find an commentary by Dawkins on Iran in particular. Can you direct me to some or any statement?

Wortfish · **#36** by **Wortfish** » Aug 16, 2017 12:39 am

felltoearth wrote:Is he opposed to the Iranian State for those reasons?
I thought it was for the torture and killing of dissidents and infidels.

I think it is because it is a religious-based government. I don't hear Dawkins ranting about North Korea, Cuba or China.

Btw, you do know that there are thousands of Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians living in Iran who have political representation?

The_Metatron · **#37** by **The_Metatron** » Aug 16, 2017 1:03 am

No kidding? What a place! I'm fucking there.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wortfish · **#38** by **Wortfish** » Aug 16, 2017 1:59 am

felltoearth wrote:Actually I can't find an commentary by Dawkins on Iran in particular. Can you direct me to some or any statement?

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/12 ... the-world/

"They suffer from the homophobia, the misogyny, the joylessness, which is preached by extreme Islam, ISIS and the Iranian regime,”

felltoearth · **#39** by **felltoearth** » Aug 16, 2017 3:42 am

I'm not clicking a blaze link. I lose brain cells every time I go there. How about a credible link?

felltoearth · **#40** by **felltoearth** » Aug 16, 2017 3:43 am

Wortfish wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Actually I can't find an commentary by Dawkins on Iran in particular. Can you direct me to some or any statement?

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/12 ... the-world/
"They suffer from the homophobia, the misogyny, the joylessness, which is preached by extreme Islam, ISIS and the Iranian regime,”

Ok. Without clicking it, how are those not objectionable?

Richard Dawkins KPFA Radio event cancelled

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